I live in Ireland and voted in the Referendum(s) mentioned by Trevin Wax. First, no one here talks of Moms! Second, reality is more complex than Trevin suggests. The proposed govt legislation was a mess - rushed, ill defined, and ideologically driven. It had all sorts of negative legal and social implications. The term 'care giver' was rejected after carers highlighted how the change was tokenism, conferring absolutely no additional rights on people giving care or people needing care. Nor did it do anything to support people with disability outside the family. Third, I voted against the changes. I am with Kelly theologically in believing the Spirit gifts men and women for all 'roles' as the Spirit chooses. This does not mean I am with the Irish govt in apparently seeking to remove all mention of gender difference in the Irish Constitution. I believe in the family and in complementarity between the genders. To conflate the Irish govt proposals with 'far left' egalitarianism is nonsense.
Agree! I thought the example of the Irish vote was ridiculous. Thank you for bringing clarity. I assumed there was more going on than Irish people wishing to exalt the dignity of stay at home moms.
Thank you. I needed that today. I will follow my purpose as God guides. I will not be diverted by some human beings who have a mistaken view of Spirit inclusivity. God bless us all, everyone.
To me this is a typical straw man argument. Without identifying the "far left" he is able to knock it down and show the "right right" (I would assume - including him) have been maligned and also forced into a belief or practice they don't believe or accept.
Your points are right on. On the other hand, what should/do we expect from TGC. It's the same song, but different dance . . . and they think they have all the quarters, if you will.
100% It is completely on brand. I just had to point it out ;) and remind complementarians that although we are inclusive, we are not gender blind, as he suggests. Thanks for engaging with the article.
Such good stuff and it's so frustrating that some people just aren't open to learning or discovering another way, or so it seems. It feels exhausting. My journey has involved many shifts along the way and I hope I continue to grow and change.
Let's throw God's design and infant into the conversation. And narrow the conversation, I'm not interested in talking about men taking spots on women's sport teams or bathrooms here. Let's limit this to "meaningful work", voice. People want voice. That's not a gender issue.
Allan Schore advocates the first 1000 days of an infants life need to be WITH Mother. God decided that. Dr. Schore suggests the infant needs Mother full time until the 3rd birthday. For the sake of the infant, FORMATION, and Jesus teaching, I believe Mother should be WITH the infant. I'm advocating for mothering education. Even having a hand held computer, let's call it device, on the table divides Mom's attention. Infant knows. Yes, that means choice. Whether to have additional children. Delaying women from entering employment or politics until later in life. It doesn't exclude her, but God's design, it does delay when. Women are also designed with enormous creativity will be frustrated, this waiting. It is a sacrafice. Something to spend much time reflecting on choices and prayer. For the sake of the child.
I see no reason to limit women from the work God has inspired them to pursue. I would prefer to have a woman plumber or electrician anyday over letting a guy into the house. My sister-in-law. became a representative in the New Mexico state house at age 65. Hard to knock on doors at that age since campaigning happens every 2 years, but she has won 3 times and holds community forums regularly, so people can have voice. Frances Haugen, the Facebook whistleblower, when testifying before Congress was an extremely organized speaker and has launched a movement for through Jon Haidt's research to protect our children's formation from devices. Frances does not have children. She chose.
I like this comment "On that day of Pentecost, the Spirit did not discriminate against men, women, young, old, Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people of Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the regions of Libya bordering Cyrene, visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism), Cretans and Arabs and neither do we. (Acts 2:9-11) This Spirit is far less interested in what biology a person has and infinitely more interested in how a person uses that biology for the sake of the Kingdom of God." What I know for sure is, since WW2 lots of people, LOTS, have been researching WHY it happened. We are only 79 years since the end of that nightmare poised for another. Men who don't want women, especially Jesus following women who study how Jesus wants us to act, influencing are foolish. Patriarchy has got us in this situation. Again.
"19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
Thanks for engaging! And for adding to the convo around Infancy needs. I was extremely privileged to stay home with my three babies for their first six mons (and breastfeed for the first year). That’s not possible for many working moms.
1 telling ourselves the truth about our design. I believe by God.
2 And our infants design, their formation.
data ~ what are the facts
infant formation ~ data
woman formation ~ desire. All people are designed to be caregivers. But not all the time. I believe you are designed by God to create something. Some beauty. The challenge is WHEN you have the freedom to pursue that creativity. I believe we should be educated, so each of us have the freedom to determine given our personal situation. I believe we are designed to live in groups. The design is extended family fill in the gaps for infant/child formation when parents need to provide resources for health and welfare of the family.
And we can have distorted desires. Do we really "need" a 3000 sq ft house and all that junk that fills garages so the cars don't fit. Is the formation of the infant more important that the debt and management of stuff?
I live in Ireland and voted in the Referendum(s) mentioned by Trevin Wax. First, no one here talks of Moms! Second, reality is more complex than Trevin suggests. The proposed govt legislation was a mess - rushed, ill defined, and ideologically driven. It had all sorts of negative legal and social implications. The term 'care giver' was rejected after carers highlighted how the change was tokenism, conferring absolutely no additional rights on people giving care or people needing care. Nor did it do anything to support people with disability outside the family. Third, I voted against the changes. I am with Kelly theologically in believing the Spirit gifts men and women for all 'roles' as the Spirit chooses. This does not mean I am with the Irish govt in apparently seeking to remove all mention of gender difference in the Irish Constitution. I believe in the family and in complementarity between the genders. To conflate the Irish govt proposals with 'far left' egalitarianism is nonsense.
Agree! I thought the example of the Irish vote was ridiculous. Thank you for bringing clarity. I assumed there was more going on than Irish people wishing to exalt the dignity of stay at home moms.
👏👏👏👏👏✅✅ Thank you Scott for Sharing Kelly’s writing. Thank you Kelly for taking a stand on this important issue.
Thanks for engaging!
Thank you. I needed that today. I will follow my purpose as God guides. I will not be diverted by some human beings who have a mistaken view of Spirit inclusivity. God bless us all, everyone.
Thank you, Kelly!!! Thank you, Scot!!! I’m going to read 1 Corinthians 13 today in the light of this.
To me this is a typical straw man argument. Without identifying the "far left" he is able to knock it down and show the "right right" (I would assume - including him) have been maligned and also forced into a belief or practice they don't believe or accept.
Your points are right on. On the other hand, what should/do we expect from TGC. It's the same song, but different dance . . . and they think they have all the quarters, if you will.
100% It is completely on brand. I just had to point it out ;) and remind complementarians that although we are inclusive, we are not gender blind, as he suggests. Thanks for engaging with the article.
👍
Such good stuff and it's so frustrating that some people just aren't open to learning or discovering another way, or so it seems. It feels exhausting. My journey has involved many shifts along the way and I hope I continue to grow and change.
Kathleen, me too! Keep going! Do what God has called you to do.
Let's throw God's design and infant into the conversation. And narrow the conversation, I'm not interested in talking about men taking spots on women's sport teams or bathrooms here. Let's limit this to "meaningful work", voice. People want voice. That's not a gender issue.
Allan Schore advocates the first 1000 days of an infants life need to be WITH Mother. God decided that. Dr. Schore suggests the infant needs Mother full time until the 3rd birthday. For the sake of the infant, FORMATION, and Jesus teaching, I believe Mother should be WITH the infant. I'm advocating for mothering education. Even having a hand held computer, let's call it device, on the table divides Mom's attention. Infant knows. Yes, that means choice. Whether to have additional children. Delaying women from entering employment or politics until later in life. It doesn't exclude her, but God's design, it does delay when. Women are also designed with enormous creativity will be frustrated, this waiting. It is a sacrafice. Something to spend much time reflecting on choices and prayer. For the sake of the child.
I see no reason to limit women from the work God has inspired them to pursue. I would prefer to have a woman plumber or electrician anyday over letting a guy into the house. My sister-in-law. became a representative in the New Mexico state house at age 65. Hard to knock on doors at that age since campaigning happens every 2 years, but she has won 3 times and holds community forums regularly, so people can have voice. Frances Haugen, the Facebook whistleblower, when testifying before Congress was an extremely organized speaker and has launched a movement for through Jon Haidt's research to protect our children's formation from devices. Frances does not have children. She chose.
I like this comment "On that day of Pentecost, the Spirit did not discriminate against men, women, young, old, Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people of Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the regions of Libya bordering Cyrene, visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism), Cretans and Arabs and neither do we. (Acts 2:9-11) This Spirit is far less interested in what biology a person has and infinitely more interested in how a person uses that biology for the sake of the Kingdom of God." What I know for sure is, since WW2 lots of people, LOTS, have been researching WHY it happened. We are only 79 years since the end of that nightmare poised for another. Men who don't want women, especially Jesus following women who study how Jesus wants us to act, influencing are foolish. Patriarchy has got us in this situation. Again.
"19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
Thanks for engaging! And for adding to the convo around Infancy needs. I was extremely privileged to stay home with my three babies for their first six mons (and breastfeed for the first year). That’s not possible for many working moms.
The two things I'm writing about, is ruthlessly
1 telling ourselves the truth about our design. I believe by God.
2 And our infants design, their formation.
data ~ what are the facts
infant formation ~ data
woman formation ~ desire. All people are designed to be caregivers. But not all the time. I believe you are designed by God to create something. Some beauty. The challenge is WHEN you have the freedom to pursue that creativity. I believe we should be educated, so each of us have the freedom to determine given our personal situation. I believe we are designed to live in groups. The design is extended family fill in the gaps for infant/child formation when parents need to provide resources for health and welfare of the family.
And we can have distorted desires. Do we really "need" a 3000 sq ft house and all that junk that fills garages so the cars don't fit. Is the formation of the infant more important that the debt and management of stuff?