I'm quite with you, Ms. Koh, in almost all of this. Here's the remaining problem: I have friends for whom this statement—"In the face of our excuses, our fear, and even our biggest, most painful doubt, God promises His presence."—doesn't mean much, because they're not experiencing God's presence. Yes, I know, we take that promise on faith a whole lot of the time. But the words that "God is with you" anyway don't mean much to someone who is unsure that that's true, because it's not experienced. For me, much of this comes down, in the end, to Pascal's wager/Kierkegaard's perspective on faith: we believe in the absence of any evidence that we can see (even if we want to see evidence; some don't, of course). In those cases, the best that we can offer is that a friend, another person, may see something of God in my ongoing faith (which itself can be a bit rickety, depending on the day).
I appreciate what you’re saying. I think many have been taught a false idea of what God’s presence actually is. I used to wonder what people meant when they said they experienced it, or how, or where. I’d think, well, isn’t it there if I draw near to Him in my heart? Doesn’t He still seek me, like the Good Shepherd that He is, when I stray? So yes, I would say it’s taken on faith, but also, if you “taste and see,” then He is faithful to show you. And then the evidence is everywhere, because you can see it, through the eyes of faith! These days I don’t worry about His presence, because I trust that it’s there, unless I choose to remove myself from it, in which case it’s up to me to go back.
I wonder if the presence needed might be simply us sometimes? Even just showing up? For my friends who aren’t experiencing God’s presence in deconstruction or doubts or whatever, I feel like all I can offer well is my ‘non anxious presence’ (as Steve Cuss puts it), trusting that the Spirit of God in me, even when I cannot answer their doubts, and perhaps even more importantly, even when I think sometimes I might be able to, is something that is healing - particularly in the absence of words. And sometimes, definitely in the absence of any answer or reasoning that I reckon is clever ;)
I am a rubbish substitute for God’s presence of course, but by being with them, especially if others aren’t and they feel God certainly isn’t, is a ministry of His love. Perhaps even more powerful than trying to answer their doubts or trying to stop their process.
I have surrendered to the reality that I cannot fix anyone, but I CAN walk beside anyone. Even with my crooked heart and rickety faith some days too.
Tre, you've said it well. Thanks! That's basically my stance, too. At least I hope so!
I sometimes think that Christians have oversold the notion that God's presence is known to all his people all the time. Well, yes, that's oversell, to be sure. So that creates doubts in itself. I could go on.
1000 times amen! For me it’s been realizing, gradually, over the course of decades, how very corrupt SO MUCH of the church, and of its life and teaching, is. When your own church betrays you, it’s the worst. So many “church authorities” want to tell you what to believe, not seeming to trust that God can do that, or that you can figure it out, with or without them. So many put themselves in the place of God. Millstones around necks comes to mind! It is the wise seeker who aims to discern and refuses to blindly follow false authority.
Thank you thank you, my wife and I left after we were very hurt by a church leader. We reach out for support and all we got was silence.
I'm quite with you, Ms. Koh, in almost all of this. Here's the remaining problem: I have friends for whom this statement—"In the face of our excuses, our fear, and even our biggest, most painful doubt, God promises His presence."—doesn't mean much, because they're not experiencing God's presence. Yes, I know, we take that promise on faith a whole lot of the time. But the words that "God is with you" anyway don't mean much to someone who is unsure that that's true, because it's not experienced. For me, much of this comes down, in the end, to Pascal's wager/Kierkegaard's perspective on faith: we believe in the absence of any evidence that we can see (even if we want to see evidence; some don't, of course). In those cases, the best that we can offer is that a friend, another person, may see something of God in my ongoing faith (which itself can be a bit rickety, depending on the day).
I'd welcome further thoughts on this.
I appreciate what you’re saying. I think many have been taught a false idea of what God’s presence actually is. I used to wonder what people meant when they said they experienced it, or how, or where. I’d think, well, isn’t it there if I draw near to Him in my heart? Doesn’t He still seek me, like the Good Shepherd that He is, when I stray? So yes, I would say it’s taken on faith, but also, if you “taste and see,” then He is faithful to show you. And then the evidence is everywhere, because you can see it, through the eyes of faith! These days I don’t worry about His presence, because I trust that it’s there, unless I choose to remove myself from it, in which case it’s up to me to go back.
Jim, I absolutely hear you.
I wonder if the presence needed might be simply us sometimes? Even just showing up? For my friends who aren’t experiencing God’s presence in deconstruction or doubts or whatever, I feel like all I can offer well is my ‘non anxious presence’ (as Steve Cuss puts it), trusting that the Spirit of God in me, even when I cannot answer their doubts, and perhaps even more importantly, even when I think sometimes I might be able to, is something that is healing - particularly in the absence of words. And sometimes, definitely in the absence of any answer or reasoning that I reckon is clever ;)
I am a rubbish substitute for God’s presence of course, but by being with them, especially if others aren’t and they feel God certainly isn’t, is a ministry of His love. Perhaps even more powerful than trying to answer their doubts or trying to stop their process.
I have surrendered to the reality that I cannot fix anyone, but I CAN walk beside anyone. Even with my crooked heart and rickety faith some days too.
Jesus help us eh?
Tre, you've said it well. Thanks! That's basically my stance, too. At least I hope so!
I sometimes think that Christians have oversold the notion that God's presence is known to all his people all the time. Well, yes, that's oversell, to be sure. So that creates doubts in itself. I could go on.
Walk on!
1000 times amen! For me it’s been realizing, gradually, over the course of decades, how very corrupt SO MUCH of the church, and of its life and teaching, is. When your own church betrays you, it’s the worst. So many “church authorities” want to tell you what to believe, not seeming to trust that God can do that, or that you can figure it out, with or without them. So many put themselves in the place of God. Millstones around necks comes to mind! It is the wise seeker who aims to discern and refuses to blindly follow false authority.