I recently said to someone I was being introduced to, “oh yes I was on the ministry team of a church for ten years”
only to have the other person in the conversation, an Anglican clergyman, say,
over the top of my head, “she means she was on staff.”
I had another clergyman from the same diocese answer me when I said I was on the ministry team “‘well then you certainly have a strange definition of ministry team.”
My job included planting and running a weekly service, writing and preaching sermons, leading a pastoral care team and doing a huge amount of pastoral care, many funerals and all the general planning, being part of the team that anyone else did. But no, not called pastor.
As everything was falling apart beneath me, I was called to pursue my doctorate of leadership and spiritual formation. There is so much I am learning about 1) how abusive that environment was and 2) how I *might* have led the adaptive process differently. In the beginning of my program I found your blog and read Nijay Gupta’s book. While I haven’t learned anything women haven’t been seeing and saying for years from you or Nijay (specifically regarding women in ministry), I’ve learned that God is raising up allies for women in the church. So my project is focused on the unique formational needs of evangelical women formed in the patriarchal church as space opens up for mutual leadership in evangelical churches. I believe God is doing a good work, but, man, the breadth of pain and damage that’s been caused along the way makes me weep. Thank you, Thank you for providing space for us to give voice to our experiences. Please don’t stop.
"I was told to resign. When I said I didn’t want to resign I was told, “staying is not an option.” Do you know why you didn't want to resign? You "asked for my job description and title be changed to match the actual work I was doing". They admitted they were taking advantage of you by saying "resign". You didn't write that they denied their strategy for getting the work done. They were not, are not, ashamed about using you. They are not delighted that the hurting people you comforted were comforted. What was it, is, that you still wanted to stay?
"I hadn’t suddenly become more qualified." When you internally realized, and boldly named the distinction, you experienced their belief system. That you are an object to be used and discarded to keep the system in place.
We like to say "it's not fair", but why don't we expect it? The Fall created a system that cannot change before Jesus returns. We are taught to live as IF the system has changed, but it has not. Do I think it's possible to create a better system? YES. And people like you, Laura, will do it. I want you to fully experience all the feelings that got you to the ask. So you don't forget. So you don't create what harms too. So you don't go back accidentally. So that Jill and Erin can work with you to create the real church using the real Gospel.
I knew I needed to leave. They were using me. I saw that clearly. They wanted me to leave because I’d seen it clearly and I’d called them out.
Still, it was hard to leave. Fifteen years of relationships. My kids were in their early teens and it was the only church they’d ever known. Leaving impacted my whole family. I’d had more leadership opportunities there than I’d ever had before in a church. And I knew I’d have to do the hard work of starting over, starting from scratch, with people who had no context for me.
God was gracious and gave me a good place to land. Sooner than I expected. Still, there was a loss of about two years of salary and I had to complete an entirely new seminary degree (which turned out to be a great blessing).
I knew I couldn’t stay, but the cost of leaving was high.
Stepping out of that system—as painful of a loss as it was at the time to me and my family—allowed me the distance to begin to name the toxic aspects of the system I’d been a part of. And as a church-planting pastor now, I regularly think about how to not re-create those toxic systems. How we can build safer churches.
Jim Wilder, Life Model Works, says the most painful thing humans experience is attachment pain. The only church your kids had known, fifteen years, you were deeply attached! That was extremely hard! I have listened to you on Kingdom Roots podcast and I miss you. But I wouldn't know about you otherwise. I don't know what God is up to, but I really like hearing what you have to say and I'm certain you are blessing women and being an extraordinary model for your children.
Your experience and knowledge of toxic systems will bless people. Creating a system for belonging and flourishing, creating well, is almost indescribable.
I recently said to someone I was being introduced to, “oh yes I was on the ministry team of a church for ten years”
only to have the other person in the conversation, an Anglican clergyman, say,
over the top of my head, “she means she was on staff.”
I had another clergyman from the same diocese answer me when I said I was on the ministry team “‘well then you certainly have a strange definition of ministry team.”
My job included planting and running a weekly service, writing and preaching sermons, leading a pastoral care team and doing a huge amount of pastoral care, many funerals and all the general planning, being part of the team that anyone else did. But no, not called pastor.
Thank you Jill. I'm sorry.
I will call you Pastor Jill! Bless you for pastoring your people.
Ugh, Jill, I’m so sorry. Bless you for using your pastoral gifts to shepherd God’s people.
So sorry Pastor Jill that you were treated that way .
Cut, paste, insert my name.
As everything was falling apart beneath me, I was called to pursue my doctorate of leadership and spiritual formation. There is so much I am learning about 1) how abusive that environment was and 2) how I *might* have led the adaptive process differently. In the beginning of my program I found your blog and read Nijay Gupta’s book. While I haven’t learned anything women haven’t been seeing and saying for years from you or Nijay (specifically regarding women in ministry), I’ve learned that God is raising up allies for women in the church. So my project is focused on the unique formational needs of evangelical women formed in the patriarchal church as space opens up for mutual leadership in evangelical churches. I believe God is doing a good work, but, man, the breadth of pain and damage that’s been caused along the way makes me weep. Thank you, Thank you for providing space for us to give voice to our experiences. Please don’t stop.
"I was told to resign. When I said I didn’t want to resign I was told, “staying is not an option.” Do you know why you didn't want to resign? You "asked for my job description and title be changed to match the actual work I was doing". They admitted they were taking advantage of you by saying "resign". You didn't write that they denied their strategy for getting the work done. They were not, are not, ashamed about using you. They are not delighted that the hurting people you comforted were comforted. What was it, is, that you still wanted to stay?
"I hadn’t suddenly become more qualified." When you internally realized, and boldly named the distinction, you experienced their belief system. That you are an object to be used and discarded to keep the system in place.
We like to say "it's not fair", but why don't we expect it? The Fall created a system that cannot change before Jesus returns. We are taught to live as IF the system has changed, but it has not. Do I think it's possible to create a better system? YES. And people like you, Laura, will do it. I want you to fully experience all the feelings that got you to the ask. So you don't forget. So you don't create what harms too. So you don't go back accidentally. So that Jill and Erin can work with you to create the real church using the real Gospel.
Stop the fraud.
Ginger, thanks for your comment.
I knew I needed to leave. They were using me. I saw that clearly. They wanted me to leave because I’d seen it clearly and I’d called them out.
Still, it was hard to leave. Fifteen years of relationships. My kids were in their early teens and it was the only church they’d ever known. Leaving impacted my whole family. I’d had more leadership opportunities there than I’d ever had before in a church. And I knew I’d have to do the hard work of starting over, starting from scratch, with people who had no context for me.
God was gracious and gave me a good place to land. Sooner than I expected. Still, there was a loss of about two years of salary and I had to complete an entirely new seminary degree (which turned out to be a great blessing).
I knew I couldn’t stay, but the cost of leaving was high.
Stepping out of that system—as painful of a loss as it was at the time to me and my family—allowed me the distance to begin to name the toxic aspects of the system I’d been a part of. And as a church-planting pastor now, I regularly think about how to not re-create those toxic systems. How we can build safer churches.
Jim Wilder, Life Model Works, says the most painful thing humans experience is attachment pain. The only church your kids had known, fifteen years, you were deeply attached! That was extremely hard! I have listened to you on Kingdom Roots podcast and I miss you. But I wouldn't know about you otherwise. I don't know what God is up to, but I really like hearing what you have to say and I'm certain you are blessing women and being an extraordinary model for your children.
Your experience and knowledge of toxic systems will bless people. Creating a system for belonging and flourishing, creating well, is almost indescribable.
So excited for you!!!
I sent you an email at this address
forum+29mtwa&3oeh4&o7dwo&509d206939f9f4e1688475244b6d0f19bf67d05cd582bf6dcc29ee1aaee9df00@mg1.substack.com
How sad this is , that the “church “ would do this.