Best part of the weather conditions for this week is the presence of some hooded mergansers on the lake near us, a bufflehead among them, and a very noisy beaver slapping its tail about a half dozen times to announce to the geese to get out of the way!
Thank you for making room for serial doubting. A century ago Christians made no room for such, and those of us who lived with doubt could do nothing but try to quell the doubts that ransacked our souls in a world in which there was no allowance for them. Fortunately Jesus was patient with those who doubted. Even after two of them, walking with him on the road to Emmaus, still doubted in spite of his efforts to remind them "of all that the prophets had spoken!" it wasn't until much later when "he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them" that they FINALLY got past their doubts. We'd rather not have doubts, but at least our doubts show that we're thinking about things that matter.
I’ve often thought that the self flagellation of the ascetics was an adaptation of not being in the world. By staying in the world, we get beaten up enough. And in the grit produced by the grist mill that is the world, we refine our light and salt.
I don't know the research Williams did for her book, but at least in her Patheos post she takes the typical Protestant line that to me does not indicate that she tried very much to understand the desert monastics "from the inside". Perhaps I'm wrong.
Going into the desert wasn't for everyone, even in those days. The desert ascetics weren't "giving up church" and human companionship. They wanted to focus on seeking God only, with fewer distractions and not as "nominal Christians". They wanted to give their attention to Jesus alone through prayer, and through the worship of the Church, for which they did gather together. Some became truly holy, enough that people sought them out for counsel, or sometimes to join them. They also were self-supporting and had to sell the things they made, so they were interacting with people in towns on a regular basis. Some of them could be rude in their encounters with people, that's true. They were just people. Williams' characterizations,, again, seem to be approaching the subject with her mind already made up.
One commenter at the Patheos site contrasted the barrenness of the desert and the Christian experience with pagans seeking out green spaces, as if there were no life in the desert. I would question whether that commenter has ever been to any desert area. Also, "the desert" in monasticism came to mean any place, no matter the terrain, where people could retreat and be alone for prayer; European monastics referred to the great forests there as "the desert". A commenter here, above, thinks the desert ascetics engaged in flagellation; this in fact was not a part of monasticism until much later, and monastics in the Eastern Churches do not engage in it. (A few in the past have worn heavy chains as a way to mortify their flesh and recall how sin keeps us bound, but this is not encouraged.)
I'm no expert on the desert monastic period, and since becoming Orthodox I don't have that Protestant point of view about monastics anymore, so I'm biased, too - but I've done enough reading, trying to understand things from the monastics' point of view and the point of view of those who have honored the monastics' struggles, to know that Williams seems not to be covering any new ground.
Thank you for making room for serial doubting. A century ago Christians made no room for such, and those of us who lived with doubt could do nothing but try to quell the doubts that ransacked our souls in a world in which there was no allowance for them. Fortunately Jesus was patient with those who doubted. Even after two of them, walking with him on the road to Emmaus, still doubted in spite of his efforts to remind them "of all that the prophets had spoken!" it wasn't until much later when "he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them" that they FINALLY got past their doubts. We'd rather not have doubts, but at least our doubts show that we're thinking about things that matter.
Scot, it’s sometimes hard to tell in these meanderings when it’s you speaking and when you’re quoting.
The only thing I write is the opening to the quotations. The rest is not me.
Then who wrote Serial Doubting?
At the link it goes to David Moore.
I’ve often thought that the self flagellation of the ascetics was an adaptation of not being in the world. By staying in the world, we get beaten up enough. And in the grit produced by the grist mill that is the world, we refine our light and salt.
I don't know the research Williams did for her book, but at least in her Patheos post she takes the typical Protestant line that to me does not indicate that she tried very much to understand the desert monastics "from the inside". Perhaps I'm wrong.
Going into the desert wasn't for everyone, even in those days. The desert ascetics weren't "giving up church" and human companionship. They wanted to focus on seeking God only, with fewer distractions and not as "nominal Christians". They wanted to give their attention to Jesus alone through prayer, and through the worship of the Church, for which they did gather together. Some became truly holy, enough that people sought them out for counsel, or sometimes to join them. They also were self-supporting and had to sell the things they made, so they were interacting with people in towns on a regular basis. Some of them could be rude in their encounters with people, that's true. They were just people. Williams' characterizations,, again, seem to be approaching the subject with her mind already made up.
One commenter at the Patheos site contrasted the barrenness of the desert and the Christian experience with pagans seeking out green spaces, as if there were no life in the desert. I would question whether that commenter has ever been to any desert area. Also, "the desert" in monasticism came to mean any place, no matter the terrain, where people could retreat and be alone for prayer; European monastics referred to the great forests there as "the desert". A commenter here, above, thinks the desert ascetics engaged in flagellation; this in fact was not a part of monasticism until much later, and monastics in the Eastern Churches do not engage in it. (A few in the past have worn heavy chains as a way to mortify their flesh and recall how sin keeps us bound, but this is not encouraged.)
I'm no expert on the desert monastic period, and since becoming Orthodox I don't have that Protestant point of view about monastics anymore, so I'm biased, too - but I've done enough reading, trying to understand things from the monastics' point of view and the point of view of those who have honored the monastics' struggles, to know that Williams seems not to be covering any new ground.
Dana