Equal in value, a complementarian axiom, does not mean equally valued, a complementarian failure. I riff on Lisa Weaver Swartz’s comments in that opening sentence. I do not know what it means to say men and women are equal in value when men have all the authority and the power, and when women are called into a role of supporting men. This is not equality in any sense. It is instead a hierarchy, which women are to like because the men do.
Nov 7, 2022·edited Nov 7, 2022Liked by Scot McKnight
This whole series -- SO true. I got my PhD at Southern from 2007-2011. Thankfully I was in a hybrid program so I only went there twice a year, two weeks at a time, for three years of coursework, in a cohort where more than half of the students and instructors were not SBC. But by the time I graduated, I would not have been accepted to the program I was in because the school continued to swing further and further to the right. The men's haberdashery was installed during my last year of coursework. Female instructors were banned from teaching theology to men. We had to take a one-day colloquium, "Gender Roles in Ministry and the Home," where the instructor said that what we believed about women's roles was a -- direct quote -- "second-tier heresy" issue. The instructor also suggested, "If you think women can be leaders in home or church, I wouldn't say you're not a Christian, but......" and left the door open for that idea. I like to say that I thank Southern Seminary for turning me into a full-blown Arminian Egalitarian. They claimed the corner on the truth of Christ (hyper-Calvinist, fundamentalist complementarian) but there was no spirit of Christ in these conversations. UGH. This series is reminding me how warped that world was, how discouraging it was for me as a female LEADER, and how thankful I am to be free from it.
SIGH! Thank you, Aaron. I suspect that most men in complementarian churches can't really get what women's noise is all about - except that it feels "unChristian." So the "answer" for a "good" woman is to confess and get in line as a good woman should. My tears are for all the women I've known who simply walked away, not just from the church but from everything "Christian." It's a heart-breaker.
I can picture many good women I’ve known with a desire to serve and strong gift of leadership- who walked away- from church then from God- because of this emphasis.
Here we go again....I think the devil has a powerful tool (often used in "Christian" circles) that can silence half the Christian population (the female half). The multitudes of Christian women I've interacted with over the years have three options: 1 - leave the church (and many do), 2 - stay in and make noise about the problem for godly women (bringing criticism), 3 - stay in quietly. All three options have upsides and downsides. All three are painful for women. And all three call into question more issues than the ones men embrace. If a woman does not have the option to question what she is being taught here, she may walk away, not only from the church but also from God. SIGH.
I’ve witnessed that pain firsthand in my wife and other women at a former church. Reminds me of a conversation I had with an elder, I told him the church has a real problem with how women are viewed and treated. He asked for specific examples, i said it was bigger than that, a cultural problem. He said he had heard of 2 specific complaints, and those were cleared up, just misunderstandings. Meaning, men sidestepped the criticism by reinterpreting women’s experience in such a way that they didn’t need to change.
The power dynamics of SBTS “Godly women” narratives is reminiscent of some of their graduates who would arrive on the mission field with these same, restrictive ideologies. Transplanting this white, middle class Southern US culture lifestyle in Southeast Asia was always unusual, and it made it quite hard for some of the wives to learn the language when the domesticity kept calling them home. Learning language while homemaking and/or homeschooling kids doesn’t work as well as it does for the men who are always out in public practicing their language skills. Ultimately, it often led to women being less likely to use any spiritual gifts out in the community, and that was heartbreaking. The rigid gender roles seemed to quench the Spirit, and ultimately, meant local women were less likely to have the Gospel preached to them. The men were mostly preaching to men. It’s not a secondary issue when half the church is sidelined and half the world doesn’t get a chance to hear the Gospel preached. Mary Mohler and Dorothy Patterson were instrumental in writing the new BF&M in the late ‘90’s to restrict women. Attaching to male power at the expense of our sisters is something I’ll never understand.
This whole series -- SO true. I got my PhD at Southern from 2007-2011. Thankfully I was in a hybrid program so I only went there twice a year, two weeks at a time, for three years of coursework, in a cohort where more than half of the students and instructors were not SBC. But by the time I graduated, I would not have been accepted to the program I was in because the school continued to swing further and further to the right. The men's haberdashery was installed during my last year of coursework. Female instructors were banned from teaching theology to men. We had to take a one-day colloquium, "Gender Roles in Ministry and the Home," where the instructor said that what we believed about women's roles was a -- direct quote -- "second-tier heresy" issue. The instructor also suggested, "If you think women can be leaders in home or church, I wouldn't say you're not a Christian, but......" and left the door open for that idea. I like to say that I thank Southern Seminary for turning me into a full-blown Arminian Egalitarian. They claimed the corner on the truth of Christ (hyper-Calvinist, fundamentalist complementarian) but there was no spirit of Christ in these conversations. UGH. This series is reminding me how warped that world was, how discouraging it was for me as a female LEADER, and how thankful I am to be free from it.
I’m so glad you are free from it too, Angie. I hate that you had to sit through that toxic teaching.
SIGH! Thank you, Aaron. I suspect that most men in complementarian churches can't really get what women's noise is all about - except that it feels "unChristian." So the "answer" for a "good" woman is to confess and get in line as a good woman should. My tears are for all the women I've known who simply walked away, not just from the church but from everything "Christian." It's a heart-breaker.
I can picture many good women I’ve known with a desire to serve and strong gift of leadership- who walked away- from church then from God- because of this emphasis.
Here we go again....I think the devil has a powerful tool (often used in "Christian" circles) that can silence half the Christian population (the female half). The multitudes of Christian women I've interacted with over the years have three options: 1 - leave the church (and many do), 2 - stay in and make noise about the problem for godly women (bringing criticism), 3 - stay in quietly. All three options have upsides and downsides. All three are painful for women. And all three call into question more issues than the ones men embrace. If a woman does not have the option to question what she is being taught here, she may walk away, not only from the church but also from God. SIGH.
I’ve witnessed that pain firsthand in my wife and other women at a former church. Reminds me of a conversation I had with an elder, I told him the church has a real problem with how women are viewed and treated. He asked for specific examples, i said it was bigger than that, a cultural problem. He said he had heard of 2 specific complaints, and those were cleared up, just misunderstandings. Meaning, men sidestepped the criticism by reinterpreting women’s experience in such a way that they didn’t need to change.
4. And best option. Walk right into a church that believes in the equality of women. There are plenty of us out there.
The power dynamics of SBTS “Godly women” narratives is reminiscent of some of their graduates who would arrive on the mission field with these same, restrictive ideologies. Transplanting this white, middle class Southern US culture lifestyle in Southeast Asia was always unusual, and it made it quite hard for some of the wives to learn the language when the domesticity kept calling them home. Learning language while homemaking and/or homeschooling kids doesn’t work as well as it does for the men who are always out in public practicing their language skills. Ultimately, it often led to women being less likely to use any spiritual gifts out in the community, and that was heartbreaking. The rigid gender roles seemed to quench the Spirit, and ultimately, meant local women were less likely to have the Gospel preached to them. The men were mostly preaching to men. It’s not a secondary issue when half the church is sidelined and half the world doesn’t get a chance to hear the Gospel preached. Mary Mohler and Dorothy Patterson were instrumental in writing the new BF&M in the late ‘90’s to restrict women. Attaching to male power at the expense of our sisters is something I’ll never understand.