This is really good Scott. Btw I met you at youth specialties in 2004 and your message and attitude started my call to ordained ministry. Thanks so much!
Whoa.... Does each viewpoint relate to a certain type of denomination of religion nowadays? For instance, I think 1. all are saved is Universalism, 2. ?, 3. predestination of elect is Reformed Calvin, 4. personal choice emphasis is Methodist, etc. Trying to trace ancient beliefs to current church denominations.....
Thank you for an intro to the Orthodox perspective. Reminds me of Dame Julian's (though much later and much more western), "...but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well." And then her comment: “These words were said most tenderly, showing no manner of blame to me nor to any who shall be saved.” (Jesus, apparently, takes the Augustinian position!)
Thank you for this article Scot. Even though on earth there is silence on Holy Saturday, God is still at work. Let us never forget that the Lord works as often in perceived silence than in amazing miracles.
A timely article as I finish reading Matthew Emerson's "He Descended to the Dead."
I hadn't really thought much of what happens before the resurrection apart from what seemed to be a really cohesive reading of 1 Peter 3:18-21 by Michael Heiser.
As for the questions:
While the first death wasn't final, I think that the second death is final. I might not be catching the intended distinction in your question, though. Whether an eternal conscious or annihilationist view, I think that the second death is an "eternal punishment" with the "everlasting" association of "eternal."
Having looked into the relevant passages and their reception by the early church, I do believe in the descent to Hades by Jesus' God-man soul. It's the one aspect of the creed that I would feel least comfortable insisting someone should believe though, and not for the kinds of reasons Grudem gives. The question of "what exactly is a 'soul'?" tends to be the one question that would give me pause if I were to change my mind on this, and also why I wouldn't insist as strongly to a dissenting Christian on this point as I would on other points of the apostles' creed.
The descent continues to bring out the theme of victory in and through humiliation and lowliness that Jesus embodies in the kingdom of God.
Hey Scot- Not sure if you read the location "hell" as the western idea of a place of torment. As far as I know, especially at Pascha, it refers simply to Sheol/hades, the abode of the dead. So the harrowing of hell isn't specifically about "salvation" as that is defined in the west. There is no place of eternal conscious torment in Orthodox theology; that which torments people is the condition of their soul that prevents them from receiving Christ's love when he returns. An alternative view of what the torment is, especially among those leaning toward universal reconciliation, is that the Lord's return will reveal the truth of who we are, and as the full import of that dawns on us we will be stricken with unparalleled remorse. Whatever torment happens, it is something generated from inside of us, not something applied from the outside.
Also, the only sermon preached in Orthodox churches on Pascha is that of St John Chrysostom; I'm sure you can find it online. When you do, read it out loud. He proclaims that not one dead person is left there :)
Yeah, as far as I know, none of the prominent branches of Christian tradition (Roman, Eastern, Lutheran, Reformed, etc.) mean the place of eternal torment when they use "hell" in this formulation, which is why I think the more modern translations of "the dead", as in "place where the dead are" is more clear. It's tough when the same word is used in English for the intermediate state of the dead AND the place of final punishment. Nevertheless, rescue from death is central to what salvation is about, even for the righteous dead. The righteous dead were not in torment, but still longing for salvation: the rescue from death and the resurrection from their bodies. As N. T. Wright says, the disembodied joy of the faithful departed still is not the final victory over death. A peaceful, disembodied existence is basically just what death entails for the people of God. What we long for is resurrection and the radically transformed resumption of embodied, eternal life.
This is just my current understanding, not trying to presume that these views of mine are correct!
This is really good Scott. Btw I met you at youth specialties in 2004 and your message and attitude started my call to ordained ministry. Thanks so much!
Thanks so much for saying this, it's meaningful. Wow.
Whoa.... Does each viewpoint relate to a certain type of denomination of religion nowadays? For instance, I think 1. all are saved is Universalism, 2. ?, 3. predestination of elect is Reformed Calvin, 4. personal choice emphasis is Methodist, etc. Trying to trace ancient beliefs to current church denominations.....
Thank you for an intro to the Orthodox perspective. Reminds me of Dame Julian's (though much later and much more western), "...but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well." And then her comment: “These words were said most tenderly, showing no manner of blame to me nor to any who shall be saved.” (Jesus, apparently, takes the Augustinian position!)
Thank you for this article Scot. Even though on earth there is silence on Holy Saturday, God is still at work. Let us never forget that the Lord works as often in perceived silence than in amazing miracles.
A timely article as I finish reading Matthew Emerson's "He Descended to the Dead."
I hadn't really thought much of what happens before the resurrection apart from what seemed to be a really cohesive reading of 1 Peter 3:18-21 by Michael Heiser.
As for the questions:
While the first death wasn't final, I think that the second death is final. I might not be catching the intended distinction in your question, though. Whether an eternal conscious or annihilationist view, I think that the second death is an "eternal punishment" with the "everlasting" association of "eternal."
Having looked into the relevant passages and their reception by the early church, I do believe in the descent to Hades by Jesus' God-man soul. It's the one aspect of the creed that I would feel least comfortable insisting someone should believe though, and not for the kinds of reasons Grudem gives. The question of "what exactly is a 'soul'?" tends to be the one question that would give me pause if I were to change my mind on this, and also why I wouldn't insist as strongly to a dissenting Christian on this point as I would on other points of the apostles' creed.
The descent continues to bring out the theme of victory in and through humiliation and lowliness that Jesus embodies in the kingdom of God.
Hey Scot- Not sure if you read the location "hell" as the western idea of a place of torment. As far as I know, especially at Pascha, it refers simply to Sheol/hades, the abode of the dead. So the harrowing of hell isn't specifically about "salvation" as that is defined in the west. There is no place of eternal conscious torment in Orthodox theology; that which torments people is the condition of their soul that prevents them from receiving Christ's love when he returns. An alternative view of what the torment is, especially among those leaning toward universal reconciliation, is that the Lord's return will reveal the truth of who we are, and as the full import of that dawns on us we will be stricken with unparalleled remorse. Whatever torment happens, it is something generated from inside of us, not something applied from the outside.
Also, the only sermon preached in Orthodox churches on Pascha is that of St John Chrysostom; I'm sure you can find it online. When you do, read it out loud. He proclaims that not one dead person is left there :)
Blessings to you & Kris-
Dana
Yeah, as far as I know, none of the prominent branches of Christian tradition (Roman, Eastern, Lutheran, Reformed, etc.) mean the place of eternal torment when they use "hell" in this formulation, which is why I think the more modern translations of "the dead", as in "place where the dead are" is more clear. It's tough when the same word is used in English for the intermediate state of the dead AND the place of final punishment. Nevertheless, rescue from death is central to what salvation is about, even for the righteous dead. The righteous dead were not in torment, but still longing for salvation: the rescue from death and the resurrection from their bodies. As N. T. Wright says, the disembodied joy of the faithful departed still is not the final victory over death. A peaceful, disembodied existence is basically just what death entails for the people of God. What we long for is resurrection and the radically transformed resumption of embodied, eternal life.
This is just my current understanding, not trying to presume that these views of mine are correct!
Excellent! Conquering death by death!