Collier's writing of people and experiences that influenced Peterson led to pleasant reflection on who and what stayed in my "bones". I first thought of a professor who shared truth and great compassion in a private conversation in college when I learned my mother was terminally ill. It was the genuine caring that cushioned, and indelibly imprinted the wise words he shared. To this day, as I sit both personally and professionally with people experiencing loss, that is with me. Another professor in grad school marked me by an assignment. It was a course in multicultural history. I thought I'd be going on a very different journey. But the challenge was to explore our own roots as far back as possible. To understand our own "culture". I've looked at "culture" in a much broader way ever since. I came to know myself better on that journey. Colleagues, many of whom are now friends have enriched my life and perspectives. In spite of being in the final season of my career, I to seek out supervision and host a network group because it enriches my life and enhances my work. The perspectives of others broadens my own. My adult children have marked me, as we converse about authors, speakers, preachers, and experiences. I so loved reading of Buttrick. I look forward to learning more of him. Finally, I could not read without apparent contrasts to religious church cultures that focus more on the messenger than on the Object of the message.
Thanks, Scot, for hosting this discussion and raising these questions. I'll respond to your first question as to how my education, formation, and experiences coalesce into who I am today. I attended and graduated from Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon in the mid 1980s. It was a great experience. But one of the most shaping influences on my life during those years was my job as an apartment manager. I managed 53 units in two buildings on opposite sides of the street. My wife and I lived in one of the units, and it was 24 blocks from downtown (on the southeast side of the city). At the time, I sometimes resented the way my work "interfered" with my seminary training. I envied a classmate who had family money and bought a house on the slopes of Mount Tabor (not far from where Jim Elliot grew up) and spent his three years studying without needing to pursue employment. Yet God had a different path for me--one that I desperately needed.
The apartment complex I managed, Matawan Manor, provided the context for me to learn how to pastor people and to work with others from different cultures. The tenants were Korean, Caucasian, Italian, African-American, Hmong, etc. After a morning parsing Hebrew verbs and discussing theology at Western, I returned to a world of replacing hot water heaters, patching holes in walls, fixing leaky faucets, and handling all kinds of tenant concerns and complaints. I dealt with domestic disputes, tenants with mental illness, and even drove a young man home after he came to visit a female tenant and ended up pulling a knife on her boyfriend. When the other guy pulled a knife, the young man fled and showed up at "the manager's apartment" and asked if I would drive him home. So I did (and took the opportunity to share the gospel with my captive audience!). Another time, I called for medics when a young lady punched her fist through her living room window during a fight with her boyfriend. Once at midnight, I answered the door to find a young man asked me if I would co-sign a loan for him so he could buy a car. I counseled one young couple who frequently ended their evening by throwing lamps and books and dishes at each other. I counseled another young man and his girlfriend (I was replacing the hot water heater in their apartment) to pursue adoption rather than abortion for an unwanted pregnancy. I couldn't believe how angry he got at me. He wasn't going to "let someone else" raise his child! I do not have time to tell about the tenant whose toilet exploded or the time when I let two thieves into an apartment where they claimed to be guests. They had just robbed the neighborhood Safeway store. Thankfully, they were apprehended without incident.
Now, as I look back, I thank God for "Matawan Manor Seminary." My Christian parents didn't shelter me, and I saw my dad, a pastor, deal with similar kinds of people and situations. But I needed this place, this context to learn for myself how to deal with people. Many years later, I'm still learning. But the lessons during my seminary years were formative.
By the way, I smiled when I read about Eugene's 18-hour effort to plant a church in Townsend, Montana! My two daughters and one of my sons played basketball there often during their high school years. The Townsend Bulldogs were in our conference, and I've fly fished the Missouri River where Eugene would have walked. What a (false) start to his pastoral vocation!
I began regularly attending church and particularly youth group when I was in high school. While I loved my youth group, and learned much about prayer, fellowship, and joy (fun), we were a little light on Bible scholarship. I ended up attended a Christian University through an athletic scholarship, and the denomination of the school I attended was certainly not light on Bible scholarship. As a freshman, I found myself in an Old Testament class with one of the hardest professors and earned my first B (also one of my only Bs.) While I was completely lost and bewildered by what we were learning, as I began to sit through my 15 hours of college Bible and attend church services pastored by college professors, it completely opened up a new world to me of what the Bible is and what it can be. This was not a quick and immediate change in my life, but through the years, I can see how watching people engage with the Bible in academic ways has shaped me to this day. I LOVE a good Bible lecture or a really serious study and I see how that experience in college nudged me to the kind of Bible learner I am today.
I have enjoyed how Winn has shown us the slow path of the way Eugene's surroundings shaped his life slowly. I know I tend to believe that everyone else is born with the knowledge of knowing exactly who they were and who they wanted to be from an early age, but I feel like I'm walking with Eugene on a road through his life and looking at all these moment that shaped him and kept him on his path towards his ministry. Also, I have to put this in here, I enjoyed the story about his interview for the internship at Madison Avenue Presbyterian and how he witnessed to those pastors and left "swelling with evangelistic fervor" while imagining himself in the preaching rotation, only to get the invitation to be the basketball coach. I laughed and recognized a few moments like that in my own life. However, I think those humbling moments can shape us as much as anything else, if we let them.
Many thanks for your story here Kristin. That was a really good story about Peterson, and through it he may have learned to tone down some. Toning down makes for a good pastor, I believe.
This section of the book was so important to me. It’s a wonderful thing to reflect back on my church and school experience and to consider how those places shaped me.
Growing up in a PCA church that taught me to love Scripture and theology, but that also tended to treat my enormous interest in such things with a bit of skepticism and suspicion because I was a girl (the number of times I was told I would make a great pastor’s wife!).
Attending Wheaton College was a gift: the classes I took, the speakers I heard, the friends I made! I became a Young Life leader and developed a passion for ministry. I found that I knew of nothing better I could do with my life than to love Jesus, love people, and help others build a relationship with God.
It’s been a long and windy road into pastoral ministry, in part because I struggled to know for a long time if I was going against God’s Word by using my gifts in ministry leadership. For years I tried to find sanctioned places to use my gifts as a woman, but my desire to study, teach, and lead only grew as I grew older. I’m pursuing an MDiv in my mid-forties.
As for influential people and following the “scent” of ministry: Last year my mentor and I were talking through my story. At one point she paused and said, “Laura, do you realize there’s a pattern here? You keep saying: I went to this group, I started leading, then they asked me to be in charge. Over and over. This is who God has designed you to be.” I had never noticed before. It’s good to have people call out God’s work in our lives and it’s good to help other people identify these things in their own lives. This is why God gave us to each other!
When I read about Reuben, many people came to my mind. One that burrowed in my heart happened after I first arrived at the University of Dallas from western NYS.
My roommate entered with all her books and told me how much they cost. I didn't know I would have to buy my books. I had no idea what to do. I went to the Financial Aid office the next morning. I know she must have seen how badly I felt. Without any judgment, she wrote on a piece of paper and told me to take it to the bookstore and get everything I needed--notebooks, pens, paper, textbooks. She asked me to come back each semester. I did and it never went on my bill. It was an incredibly generous gift with no lectures, no opinions. It shaped me more deeply than I knew at the time, though I was incredibly grateful. It helped me to look for opportunities to pay it forward and to be aware of who is in need. It's like it gave me a stethoscope of sorts.
“‘I always thought you’d go to seminary,’ Evelyn replied easily.”
I love how she had so thoughtfully been paying attention to how God had been at work in her son’s life.
When I told my parents I wanted to give up my full scholarship at my dream school to transfer to a Christian university to major in youth ministry, they didn’t flinch either. And yet, in our denominational context, it was unheard of for anyone to pursue a degree in youth ministry, much less a 19 year old girl. But they, too, gave the gift of paying attention. Especially my mom.
It was also unthinkable that I would serve in vocational ministry, so I served as a volunteer youth worker while coordinating a county youth program. But two years after I graduated, the position God had been preparing me for opened up. It wasn’t in youth ministry though. Rather, it was in my (small) denomination’s ministry training program - a conglomeration of regional seminars and classes for lay leaders who were already working full-time “secular” jobs while trying to fill pastoral and leadership voids in their congregations. My job was to coordinate a distance learning extension for non-pastoral leaders. Since it was 2005, I went to work developing an online program (much to the ire of the technophobes)...and went back to school to get my MA in Curriculum and Instruction in order to be better qualified to do it.
The online program eventually absorbed the bi-vocational pastoral training program, and my job title changed more times than I could count. But a pattern emerged. I had a knack for identifying the limiting factor, developing a solution and process, and then passing it off to someone else. To add to the fun, the solution usually involved incorporating a theological paradigm into our framework (for example, mutuality and team-based leadership). I was eventually promoted to co-director of the entire program (despite the complementarian context).
These experiences provided a pattern this past year to help me recognize how God was leading me out of that ministry context and opening a door to a new one. In many ways, I feel like Eugene did when he stepped onto the campus of SPU. Comparatively, I know no one, and I come with a big empty feeling. But once again, I’m getting to work towards something that I considered unthinkable only a year ago. And like Eugene, I’m looking forward to learning a lot of new names...all the while learning to favor relationship over ambition.
It’s amazing to consider how the Lord uses our life experiences to shape us. I had a similar thought to the one you shared, Scot- how would Eugene’s life and legacy have changed if his initial church planting endeavor had lasted more than a day? Looking back, it’s easy for us to see God’s hand in leading him to NY. But that doesn’t diminish the discouragement and anxiety in his young life.
I can think back to some of the more difficult moments in my own life and (with the gift of hindsight) see the Lord’s hand shaping and forming me- losing my childhood home in a fire that forced us to move from rural WA to suburban Orange County, or losing my first ministry position in a highly legalistic church (in my early 20s) and moving on to seminary. The Lord used these painful experiences in my life, and I would not be who I am today without them. The struggle is bringing this perspective into current pandemic-related ministry pains and find the same gratitude in the midst of the struggle. I can’t say I’m there quite yet. :)
Thank you, Scott, for your thoughts on Peterson's life. I love how Eugene could live as an introvert, yet engage with thinkers and leaders of his day. He was an exceptional leader, yet humble and unassuming. I particularly loved Peterson's love for the Bible. I long for that to be one of my greatest passions as well. I remember getting so excited about Traina's book in seminary as well as endless hours listening to Prof Hendricks make scriptures come alive. Here's the phrase that got me "there's no way I can preach to these people if I don't know how they are living, what they are thinking and talking about." Yes! Eugene's life gives me such freedom and joy in being both an introvert, and yet sometimes called to the public stage. I do so only with the confidence of God. Thank you!
This section has me reflecting on the people who have shaped me or been used to guide me along the way. Like Roy, the interim pastor who served as a peacemaker for our church. His image-rich way of preaching and “people” first way of pastoring continue to influence me. His full-time gig was as a speech professor, and later he’d become my college advisor. My first staff position came from his recommendation.
Or like Rindy, who in seminary invited me to a church I that wasn’t on my radar, but where I made friends, met my wife, and ultimately served on staff for more than a decade.
I also think of things that I seemed to wander into that marked me so deeply- the mission trip I was pushed into that opened my heart to the world, the closed doors that made me restless and open to the DMin program at Northern at just the right time, or the job that didn’t seem to fit but that the Lord was clearly leading me to. It’s pretty remarkable to think about how the Lord’s guiding moves seem so small or random until you look back on them.
"For two hours every Tuesday and Thursday afternoon, I walk through the neighborhood and make home visits. There is no way I can preach to these people if I don’t know how they are living, what they are thinking and talking about."
This hit like an anvil. This is a gigantic problem in the church. In many cases, the vocational leaders just simply don't know what is going on. They're detached. Sunday rolls around, and they double click on "church.exe" and the Sunday service happens, and then everyone goes home.
I recently got a text asking, "How do you think the Equality Act might affect the church?" He's thinking, "How is this going to potentially affect our employment practices at our church, inside the building?" He's not talking or thinking about the people in our body (health care providers, professionals, small business owners) who are faced with radical changes to their professional lives.
Hello Mitch, I was wondering about this problem too. How does one do the work of knowing their people, and the community, in a culture where door-to-door visitation and even phones called, are resisted.
The story that stayed with me all week — and I thought about it morning, afternoon, and evening — was this one about the young woman who killed another while driving:
“Eugene, evidencing the same pastoral instincts he would follow the rest of his life, was leery of the overheated rhetoric and moral certainty and felt compassion for those facing the mob. He was concerned that injustice was being done in the name of justice.”
I don’t think I’ll say more for fear, but Eugene’s compassion overwhelms my soul.
Laura, that sentence summarizes so well why Eugene has been a primary influence on my own pastoral ministry and why I lament so much of the current church culture that appears to embrace the overheated rhetoric and moral certainty and disregards how Jesus' response to the crowds was compassion. And, unfortunately, us pastors can be at the forefront of the embrace and the disregard
Eugene Peterson was the on the track team with Gordon Fee, a prayer partner with Pat Robertson and also knew Frederick Buechner? It is fascinating to think about how aspiring to do great things for God is somewhat contagious, even when we can go very different directions with it from within the same seminary.
A former pastor of mine once told me, "You will, by and large, be the same person you are now by this time next year, save for the books you read and the people you meet." The media we consume and the people we interact with undoubtedly have an immeasurably shaping influence.
I almost - ALMOST - attended a different online seminary, but following Scot on Twitter (a platform I no longer utilize for mental health reasons) led me to hear about the possibility of a "Norther Live" program. The Spirit convicted me to wait for a bit and then, lo and behold, it worked out for me to enroll in Northern's then brand new MANT program through NL. It has undoubtedly shaped me, and our church, in life-changing ways.
It was through that program that I met and was "mentored" by Scot through my degree program. It was through that program that I met and had the privilege of working with Greg Boyd, which led to my thesis project. It was through that program that much of my theological and hermeneutical perspectives began to shift and solidify in ways I never previously imagined, but for which I am unspeakably grateful.
Sometimes our relationships/circumstances leave us curious, wondering, like Glinda and Elphaba in WICKED, "Who can say if I've been changed for the better?" Thankfully, I can say with conviction, that "because (I went to Northern), I have been changed for good," and mean it in both the temporal and qualitative sense. The Spirit continues to shape me as a result of those four years, both as a pastor and as a teacher. Thank God, for I surely needed (and continue to need) re-shaping!
This book has given me a new appreciation for Eugene Peterson’s ideas and approach to ministry. I devoured it within a few days after it came out. (Now I need to skim & review to refresh my memory for this discussion!) Reading about his life, and the influences and occurrences that shaped it, how he lived his convictions, it all makes Peterson substantive for me.
I believe that Peterson’s thoughts about church size are important for us to consider. The dominant model of the evangelical church is stage-centric, and it depends on content delivery. The anthropology that undergirds that model is that humans are ‘brains on a stick’ (as James KA Smith would put it). That kind of model thrives with large numbers. But we have to ask ourselves, what kind of spiritual fruit and formation has come from the past four decades of the megachurch model? I have come to believe that the smaller church, with Christ at the center instead of the sermon, and a shepherd pastor who knows his flock through personal conversation and involvement – that is the church model more likely to produce Christ-following disciples. I think it’s appropriate the Eugene wasn’t legalistic or adamant about this, but I think it’s an important question, because evangelicalism has reached a crisis point.
I can’t remember Scot if you directly addressed church size in a Church Called TOV but it’s at least discussed tangentially. The toxic culture elements (institution creep, celebrity culture, etc.) all develop more easily in a very large church.
In pastors/shepherds should follow the example of the chief shepherd, then it would seem that they would follow His model. So, if Jesus says, "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father" (John 10:14-15), how is it possible to do pastoral ministry and not know the people and be known by the people? Could the lack of following this pattern play into some of the toxic church cultures discussed in A Church Called Tov?
And how does that impact our understanding of how we prepare pastors for their ministerial vocations? In my seminary experience, most thought ministry would be 25-30 hours of reading, studying, and preparing for preaching/teaching, leading worship, running a few meetings, and handling some administrative tasks. Interaction with the congregation (other than at worship and church potlucks) was reactive, ie. a member called in crisis or was in the hospital, etc.
Hopefully, not being judgmental but trying to figure out how we got to where we are and why much of what passes for pastoral ministry stands in stark contrast to how Eugene viewed it.
At 19 my biblical education started in what was called a School of Preaching, on the recommendation of an older preacher friend I’d made just after it dawned on me that I was feeding swine and returned home. I’d later realize it was much deeper theologically than I realized but at 19 all I knew was I was learning what (or, who) was in the Bible. We read it and memorized long sections and hundreds of verses. I thought I’d die of sleep deprivation in those days. The instructors were all former missionaries, and so had that peculiar slant that missionaries tend to bring to and out of the text; these were biblical, learned giants to me, even if I didn’t know that at 19. I learned to read scripture with, and among them. Undergrad at Lubbock Christian University came next and there I learned the historical-critical approach, which complemented a rather flat reading in those two previous years. I met a prof there that twisted, bent and almost broke my faith by asking that I let go of presuppositions that held together a flimsy faith system, and listen deeply for God is the text. Later, married with 3 children and pastoring a 200 member church, graduate school in Bible/theological studies brought together never before imagined, by me at least, ideas and challenges plowing through preconceptions, again, I’d leave behind. No strong personalities forced any of this, but humble people that loved the text, the church and God shaped my own way with study and pastoral life. It was in grad school that all the Ed. years coalesced and I learned to love God’s church more than ever - the broken, bloodied and bedraggled bride with all her realities. Mine was, like Eugene often emphasized, the size church I could know and truly pastor, which sometimes made the loving difficult , both for me and the churches I served (they knew me as well)! After moving back to Texas I became friends with one of the most widely known Christian authors over the last 40 + years. I knew what pastoring meant for me, and so I expressed that I had no idea how I could ever pastor in a church the size of the one for which he preached. It was enlightening when he returned the sentiment with ‘and I could never pastor in a church the size of yours.’ I realized in that moment, while my bent was shaped much by Eugene (and others) toward a knowing relationship with members and therefore a smaller church, that not all pastor/preachers were made for knowing relationships, and that God uses all kinds in various ways to build his people. Thank you Scott! I probably missed the question point, but it was good to think through these pastoral shaping, chiseling moments in my life again. I love the humor of Eugene’s abandoned attempt at church planting in his beginnings. peace
I have to raise my hand on this one: there is no such thing as a pastor who is not in knowing relationships with people. He/she may be a preacher or a talking head but even the preaching that doesn't emerge from knowing relationships isn't preaching. I know this goes on so there is, in fact, such a pastor but it's not right.
This, to my mind, could go in a number of directions I wasn't intending, but there surely is room for accepting varying levels of 'knowing relationships,' or in my experience, I guess I'd call it 'styles of knowing.' Mine is very face to face, in the trenches, take my sunglasses off to see the eyes style of knowing, but I know pastors that are not of the same posture and yet pastor well. Yet, I concur with both of you, Scot and Mitch, It's definitely my ministry/pastoral conviction to having knowing relationships. I don't know how to pastor/preach among people whose names, struggles, joys, gifts, etc., I do not know!! I enjoy this place of civil back and forth. peace
I don't quite know what to think about that Randy. I don't think we can qualify certain pastors as not made for knowing relationships. I could probably spend the next 30 minutes making the case that it's extremely destructive. But what do I know?
I think I’d agree with what you’d spend 30 min on, so maybe don’t do that on my account. Or, certainly do as you wish, it would likely be good stuff. Im not sure how to say this, but I should have mentioned that my friends point was that he knew he wasn’t shaped for, or think it possible to pastor as I did in a small church - highly relational. He worked in a very healthy context with people that helped with pastoral work i.e. elders (pastors) & staff pastors. peace
Collier's writing of people and experiences that influenced Peterson led to pleasant reflection on who and what stayed in my "bones". I first thought of a professor who shared truth and great compassion in a private conversation in college when I learned my mother was terminally ill. It was the genuine caring that cushioned, and indelibly imprinted the wise words he shared. To this day, as I sit both personally and professionally with people experiencing loss, that is with me. Another professor in grad school marked me by an assignment. It was a course in multicultural history. I thought I'd be going on a very different journey. But the challenge was to explore our own roots as far back as possible. To understand our own "culture". I've looked at "culture" in a much broader way ever since. I came to know myself better on that journey. Colleagues, many of whom are now friends have enriched my life and perspectives. In spite of being in the final season of my career, I to seek out supervision and host a network group because it enriches my life and enhances my work. The perspectives of others broadens my own. My adult children have marked me, as we converse about authors, speakers, preachers, and experiences. I so loved reading of Buttrick. I look forward to learning more of him. Finally, I could not read without apparent contrasts to religious church cultures that focus more on the messenger than on the Object of the message.
Thanks, Scot, for hosting this discussion and raising these questions. I'll respond to your first question as to how my education, formation, and experiences coalesce into who I am today. I attended and graduated from Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon in the mid 1980s. It was a great experience. But one of the most shaping influences on my life during those years was my job as an apartment manager. I managed 53 units in two buildings on opposite sides of the street. My wife and I lived in one of the units, and it was 24 blocks from downtown (on the southeast side of the city). At the time, I sometimes resented the way my work "interfered" with my seminary training. I envied a classmate who had family money and bought a house on the slopes of Mount Tabor (not far from where Jim Elliot grew up) and spent his three years studying without needing to pursue employment. Yet God had a different path for me--one that I desperately needed.
The apartment complex I managed, Matawan Manor, provided the context for me to learn how to pastor people and to work with others from different cultures. The tenants were Korean, Caucasian, Italian, African-American, Hmong, etc. After a morning parsing Hebrew verbs and discussing theology at Western, I returned to a world of replacing hot water heaters, patching holes in walls, fixing leaky faucets, and handling all kinds of tenant concerns and complaints. I dealt with domestic disputes, tenants with mental illness, and even drove a young man home after he came to visit a female tenant and ended up pulling a knife on her boyfriend. When the other guy pulled a knife, the young man fled and showed up at "the manager's apartment" and asked if I would drive him home. So I did (and took the opportunity to share the gospel with my captive audience!). Another time, I called for medics when a young lady punched her fist through her living room window during a fight with her boyfriend. Once at midnight, I answered the door to find a young man asked me if I would co-sign a loan for him so he could buy a car. I counseled one young couple who frequently ended their evening by throwing lamps and books and dishes at each other. I counseled another young man and his girlfriend (I was replacing the hot water heater in their apartment) to pursue adoption rather than abortion for an unwanted pregnancy. I couldn't believe how angry he got at me. He wasn't going to "let someone else" raise his child! I do not have time to tell about the tenant whose toilet exploded or the time when I let two thieves into an apartment where they claimed to be guests. They had just robbed the neighborhood Safeway store. Thankfully, they were apprehended without incident.
Now, as I look back, I thank God for "Matawan Manor Seminary." My Christian parents didn't shelter me, and I saw my dad, a pastor, deal with similar kinds of people and situations. But I needed this place, this context to learn for myself how to deal with people. Many years later, I'm still learning. But the lessons during my seminary years were formative.
By the way, I smiled when I read about Eugene's 18-hour effort to plant a church in Townsend, Montana! My two daughters and one of my sons played basketball there often during their high school years. The Townsend Bulldogs were in our conference, and I've fly fished the Missouri River where Eugene would have walked. What a (false) start to his pastoral vocation!
I began regularly attending church and particularly youth group when I was in high school. While I loved my youth group, and learned much about prayer, fellowship, and joy (fun), we were a little light on Bible scholarship. I ended up attended a Christian University through an athletic scholarship, and the denomination of the school I attended was certainly not light on Bible scholarship. As a freshman, I found myself in an Old Testament class with one of the hardest professors and earned my first B (also one of my only Bs.) While I was completely lost and bewildered by what we were learning, as I began to sit through my 15 hours of college Bible and attend church services pastored by college professors, it completely opened up a new world to me of what the Bible is and what it can be. This was not a quick and immediate change in my life, but through the years, I can see how watching people engage with the Bible in academic ways has shaped me to this day. I LOVE a good Bible lecture or a really serious study and I see how that experience in college nudged me to the kind of Bible learner I am today.
I have enjoyed how Winn has shown us the slow path of the way Eugene's surroundings shaped his life slowly. I know I tend to believe that everyone else is born with the knowledge of knowing exactly who they were and who they wanted to be from an early age, but I feel like I'm walking with Eugene on a road through his life and looking at all these moment that shaped him and kept him on his path towards his ministry. Also, I have to put this in here, I enjoyed the story about his interview for the internship at Madison Avenue Presbyterian and how he witnessed to those pastors and left "swelling with evangelistic fervor" while imagining himself in the preaching rotation, only to get the invitation to be the basketball coach. I laughed and recognized a few moments like that in my own life. However, I think those humbling moments can shape us as much as anything else, if we let them.
Many thanks for your story here Kristin. That was a really good story about Peterson, and through it he may have learned to tone down some. Toning down makes for a good pastor, I believe.
This section of the book was so important to me. It’s a wonderful thing to reflect back on my church and school experience and to consider how those places shaped me.
Growing up in a PCA church that taught me to love Scripture and theology, but that also tended to treat my enormous interest in such things with a bit of skepticism and suspicion because I was a girl (the number of times I was told I would make a great pastor’s wife!).
Attending Wheaton College was a gift: the classes I took, the speakers I heard, the friends I made! I became a Young Life leader and developed a passion for ministry. I found that I knew of nothing better I could do with my life than to love Jesus, love people, and help others build a relationship with God.
It’s been a long and windy road into pastoral ministry, in part because I struggled to know for a long time if I was going against God’s Word by using my gifts in ministry leadership. For years I tried to find sanctioned places to use my gifts as a woman, but my desire to study, teach, and lead only grew as I grew older. I’m pursuing an MDiv in my mid-forties.
As for influential people and following the “scent” of ministry: Last year my mentor and I were talking through my story. At one point she paused and said, “Laura, do you realize there’s a pattern here? You keep saying: I went to this group, I started leading, then they asked me to be in charge. Over and over. This is who God has designed you to be.” I had never noticed before. It’s good to have people call out God’s work in our lives and it’s good to help other people identify these things in their own lives. This is why God gave us to each other!
I like your "this is who God has designed you to be" awareness. This is why God gave us to each other.
You encourage us by your example, thought-provoking questions, and reflections on Facebook.
I loved reading this and I'm so thankful for your faithfulness.
When I read about Reuben, many people came to my mind. One that burrowed in my heart happened after I first arrived at the University of Dallas from western NYS.
My roommate entered with all her books and told me how much they cost. I didn't know I would have to buy my books. I had no idea what to do. I went to the Financial Aid office the next morning. I know she must have seen how badly I felt. Without any judgment, she wrote on a piece of paper and told me to take it to the bookstore and get everything I needed--notebooks, pens, paper, textbooks. She asked me to come back each semester. I did and it never went on my bill. It was an incredibly generous gift with no lectures, no opinions. It shaped me more deeply than I knew at the time, though I was incredibly grateful. It helped me to look for opportunities to pay it forward and to be aware of who is in need. It's like it gave me a stethoscope of sorts.
Thank you for the beautiful reflection, Terri.
“‘I always thought you’d go to seminary,’ Evelyn replied easily.”
I love how she had so thoughtfully been paying attention to how God had been at work in her son’s life.
When I told my parents I wanted to give up my full scholarship at my dream school to transfer to a Christian university to major in youth ministry, they didn’t flinch either. And yet, in our denominational context, it was unheard of for anyone to pursue a degree in youth ministry, much less a 19 year old girl. But they, too, gave the gift of paying attention. Especially my mom.
It was also unthinkable that I would serve in vocational ministry, so I served as a volunteer youth worker while coordinating a county youth program. But two years after I graduated, the position God had been preparing me for opened up. It wasn’t in youth ministry though. Rather, it was in my (small) denomination’s ministry training program - a conglomeration of regional seminars and classes for lay leaders who were already working full-time “secular” jobs while trying to fill pastoral and leadership voids in their congregations. My job was to coordinate a distance learning extension for non-pastoral leaders. Since it was 2005, I went to work developing an online program (much to the ire of the technophobes)...and went back to school to get my MA in Curriculum and Instruction in order to be better qualified to do it.
The online program eventually absorbed the bi-vocational pastoral training program, and my job title changed more times than I could count. But a pattern emerged. I had a knack for identifying the limiting factor, developing a solution and process, and then passing it off to someone else. To add to the fun, the solution usually involved incorporating a theological paradigm into our framework (for example, mutuality and team-based leadership). I was eventually promoted to co-director of the entire program (despite the complementarian context).
These experiences provided a pattern this past year to help me recognize how God was leading me out of that ministry context and opening a door to a new one. In many ways, I feel like Eugene did when he stepped onto the campus of SPU. Comparatively, I know no one, and I come with a big empty feeling. But once again, I’m getting to work towards something that I considered unthinkable only a year ago. And like Eugene, I’m looking forward to learning a lot of new names...all the while learning to favor relationship over ambition.
It’s amazing to consider how the Lord uses our life experiences to shape us. I had a similar thought to the one you shared, Scot- how would Eugene’s life and legacy have changed if his initial church planting endeavor had lasted more than a day? Looking back, it’s easy for us to see God’s hand in leading him to NY. But that doesn’t diminish the discouragement and anxiety in his young life.
I can think back to some of the more difficult moments in my own life and (with the gift of hindsight) see the Lord’s hand shaping and forming me- losing my childhood home in a fire that forced us to move from rural WA to suburban Orange County, or losing my first ministry position in a highly legalistic church (in my early 20s) and moving on to seminary. The Lord used these painful experiences in my life, and I would not be who I am today without them. The struggle is bringing this perspective into current pandemic-related ministry pains and find the same gratitude in the midst of the struggle. I can’t say I’m there quite yet. :)
Thank you, Scott, for your thoughts on Peterson's life. I love how Eugene could live as an introvert, yet engage with thinkers and leaders of his day. He was an exceptional leader, yet humble and unassuming. I particularly loved Peterson's love for the Bible. I long for that to be one of my greatest passions as well. I remember getting so excited about Traina's book in seminary as well as endless hours listening to Prof Hendricks make scriptures come alive. Here's the phrase that got me "there's no way I can preach to these people if I don't know how they are living, what they are thinking and talking about." Yes! Eugene's life gives me such freedom and joy in being both an introvert, and yet sometimes called to the public stage. I do so only with the confidence of God. Thank you!
This section has me reflecting on the people who have shaped me or been used to guide me along the way. Like Roy, the interim pastor who served as a peacemaker for our church. His image-rich way of preaching and “people” first way of pastoring continue to influence me. His full-time gig was as a speech professor, and later he’d become my college advisor. My first staff position came from his recommendation.
Or like Rindy, who in seminary invited me to a church I that wasn’t on my radar, but where I made friends, met my wife, and ultimately served on staff for more than a decade.
I also think of things that I seemed to wander into that marked me so deeply- the mission trip I was pushed into that opened my heart to the world, the closed doors that made me restless and open to the DMin program at Northern at just the right time, or the job that didn’t seem to fit but that the Lord was clearly leading me to. It’s pretty remarkable to think about how the Lord’s guiding moves seem so small or random until you look back on them.
"For two hours every Tuesday and Thursday afternoon, I walk through the neighborhood and make home visits. There is no way I can preach to these people if I don’t know how they are living, what they are thinking and talking about."
This hit like an anvil. This is a gigantic problem in the church. In many cases, the vocational leaders just simply don't know what is going on. They're detached. Sunday rolls around, and they double click on "church.exe" and the Sunday service happens, and then everyone goes home.
I recently got a text asking, "How do you think the Equality Act might affect the church?" He's thinking, "How is this going to potentially affect our employment practices at our church, inside the building?" He's not talking or thinking about the people in our body (health care providers, professionals, small business owners) who are faced with radical changes to their professional lives.
Hello Mitch, I was wondering about this problem too. How does one do the work of knowing their people, and the community, in a culture where door-to-door visitation and even phones called, are resisted.
The story that stayed with me all week — and I thought about it morning, afternoon, and evening — was this one about the young woman who killed another while driving:
“Eugene, evidencing the same pastoral instincts he would follow the rest of his life, was leery of the overheated rhetoric and moral certainty and felt compassion for those facing the mob. He was concerned that injustice was being done in the name of justice.”
I don’t think I’ll say more for fear, but Eugene’s compassion overwhelms my soul.
Laura, that sentence summarizes so well why Eugene has been a primary influence on my own pastoral ministry and why I lament so much of the current church culture that appears to embrace the overheated rhetoric and moral certainty and disregards how Jesus' response to the crowds was compassion. And, unfortunately, us pastors can be at the forefront of the embrace and the disregard
Eugene Peterson was the on the track team with Gordon Fee, a prayer partner with Pat Robertson and also knew Frederick Buechner? It is fascinating to think about how aspiring to do great things for God is somewhat contagious, even when we can go very different directions with it from within the same seminary.
A former pastor of mine once told me, "You will, by and large, be the same person you are now by this time next year, save for the books you read and the people you meet." The media we consume and the people we interact with undoubtedly have an immeasurably shaping influence.
I almost - ALMOST - attended a different online seminary, but following Scot on Twitter (a platform I no longer utilize for mental health reasons) led me to hear about the possibility of a "Norther Live" program. The Spirit convicted me to wait for a bit and then, lo and behold, it worked out for me to enroll in Northern's then brand new MANT program through NL. It has undoubtedly shaped me, and our church, in life-changing ways.
It was through that program that I met and was "mentored" by Scot through my degree program. It was through that program that I met and had the privilege of working with Greg Boyd, which led to my thesis project. It was through that program that much of my theological and hermeneutical perspectives began to shift and solidify in ways I never previously imagined, but for which I am unspeakably grateful.
Sometimes our relationships/circumstances leave us curious, wondering, like Glinda and Elphaba in WICKED, "Who can say if I've been changed for the better?" Thankfully, I can say with conviction, that "because (I went to Northern), I have been changed for good," and mean it in both the temporal and qualitative sense. The Spirit continues to shape me as a result of those four years, both as a pastor and as a teacher. Thank God, for I surely needed (and continue to need) re-shaping!
This book has given me a new appreciation for Eugene Peterson’s ideas and approach to ministry. I devoured it within a few days after it came out. (Now I need to skim & review to refresh my memory for this discussion!) Reading about his life, and the influences and occurrences that shaped it, how he lived his convictions, it all makes Peterson substantive for me.
I believe that Peterson’s thoughts about church size are important for us to consider. The dominant model of the evangelical church is stage-centric, and it depends on content delivery. The anthropology that undergirds that model is that humans are ‘brains on a stick’ (as James KA Smith would put it). That kind of model thrives with large numbers. But we have to ask ourselves, what kind of spiritual fruit and formation has come from the past four decades of the megachurch model? I have come to believe that the smaller church, with Christ at the center instead of the sermon, and a shepherd pastor who knows his flock through personal conversation and involvement – that is the church model more likely to produce Christ-following disciples. I think it’s appropriate the Eugene wasn’t legalistic or adamant about this, but I think it’s an important question, because evangelicalism has reached a crisis point.
I can’t remember Scot if you directly addressed church size in a Church Called TOV but it’s at least discussed tangentially. The toxic culture elements (institution creep, celebrity culture, etc.) all develop more easily in a very large church.
In pastors/shepherds should follow the example of the chief shepherd, then it would seem that they would follow His model. So, if Jesus says, "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father" (John 10:14-15), how is it possible to do pastoral ministry and not know the people and be known by the people? Could the lack of following this pattern play into some of the toxic church cultures discussed in A Church Called Tov?
And how does that impact our understanding of how we prepare pastors for their ministerial vocations? In my seminary experience, most thought ministry would be 25-30 hours of reading, studying, and preparing for preaching/teaching, leading worship, running a few meetings, and handling some administrative tasks. Interaction with the congregation (other than at worship and church potlucks) was reactive, ie. a member called in crisis or was in the hospital, etc.
Hopefully, not being judgmental but trying to figure out how we got to where we are and why much of what passes for pastoral ministry stands in stark contrast to how Eugene viewed it.
At 19 my biblical education started in what was called a School of Preaching, on the recommendation of an older preacher friend I’d made just after it dawned on me that I was feeding swine and returned home. I’d later realize it was much deeper theologically than I realized but at 19 all I knew was I was learning what (or, who) was in the Bible. We read it and memorized long sections and hundreds of verses. I thought I’d die of sleep deprivation in those days. The instructors were all former missionaries, and so had that peculiar slant that missionaries tend to bring to and out of the text; these were biblical, learned giants to me, even if I didn’t know that at 19. I learned to read scripture with, and among them. Undergrad at Lubbock Christian University came next and there I learned the historical-critical approach, which complemented a rather flat reading in those two previous years. I met a prof there that twisted, bent and almost broke my faith by asking that I let go of presuppositions that held together a flimsy faith system, and listen deeply for God is the text. Later, married with 3 children and pastoring a 200 member church, graduate school in Bible/theological studies brought together never before imagined, by me at least, ideas and challenges plowing through preconceptions, again, I’d leave behind. No strong personalities forced any of this, but humble people that loved the text, the church and God shaped my own way with study and pastoral life. It was in grad school that all the Ed. years coalesced and I learned to love God’s church more than ever - the broken, bloodied and bedraggled bride with all her realities. Mine was, like Eugene often emphasized, the size church I could know and truly pastor, which sometimes made the loving difficult , both for me and the churches I served (they knew me as well)! After moving back to Texas I became friends with one of the most widely known Christian authors over the last 40 + years. I knew what pastoring meant for me, and so I expressed that I had no idea how I could ever pastor in a church the size of the one for which he preached. It was enlightening when he returned the sentiment with ‘and I could never pastor in a church the size of yours.’ I realized in that moment, while my bent was shaped much by Eugene (and others) toward a knowing relationship with members and therefore a smaller church, that not all pastor/preachers were made for knowing relationships, and that God uses all kinds in various ways to build his people. Thank you Scott! I probably missed the question point, but it was good to think through these pastoral shaping, chiseling moments in my life again. I love the humor of Eugene’s abandoned attempt at church planting in his beginnings. peace
I have to raise my hand on this one: there is no such thing as a pastor who is not in knowing relationships with people. He/she may be a preacher or a talking head but even the preaching that doesn't emerge from knowing relationships isn't preaching. I know this goes on so there is, in fact, such a pastor but it's not right.
This, to my mind, could go in a number of directions I wasn't intending, but there surely is room for accepting varying levels of 'knowing relationships,' or in my experience, I guess I'd call it 'styles of knowing.' Mine is very face to face, in the trenches, take my sunglasses off to see the eyes style of knowing, but I know pastors that are not of the same posture and yet pastor well. Yet, I concur with both of you, Scot and Mitch, It's definitely my ministry/pastoral conviction to having knowing relationships. I don't know how to pastor/preach among people whose names, struggles, joys, gifts, etc., I do not know!! I enjoy this place of civil back and forth. peace
I don't quite know what to think about that Randy. I don't think we can qualify certain pastors as not made for knowing relationships. I could probably spend the next 30 minutes making the case that it's extremely destructive. But what do I know?
I think I’d agree with what you’d spend 30 min on, so maybe don’t do that on my account. Or, certainly do as you wish, it would likely be good stuff. Im not sure how to say this, but I should have mentioned that my friends point was that he knew he wasn’t shaped for, or think it possible to pastor as I did in a small church - highly relational. He worked in a very healthy context with people that helped with pastoral work i.e. elders (pastors) & staff pastors. peace