I both deeply believe what you say—that commitment/devotion is critical to life in community—and also that it's terribly difficult to sustain in some situations. Five years ago, several of us who had been part of the leadership of a congregation for more than 30 years were told, in the middle of a crisis, that our leadership and even our presence were no longer wanted—that we were seen as part of the problem. Almost no one was available with whom we could have had an honest conversation. And at age 70 (at that time), it was truly difficult to imagine starting over, in a different context, to work to embed ourselves in a new community. We've not at all left Jesus; and we've not given up on God's church; and we're waiting. Is the waiting a cop-out? Could be. But it's not for lack of desire. I frequently wish that our situation could be different.
Jim, thanks for sharing this devastating story. I know the pain and betrayal must be so deep. Your tenacity to hold on to Jesus in the midst of it shows true grit. Standing with you.
I love this response. What I've noticed about churches is they seem to have a life cycle. Many do fade away. When you bring in new voices, the new leaders experience was formed being born 30 years later than you. Conflict seems natural. I am so very sorry you were told your leadership and presence were no longer wanted. That must have felt devastating! I do feel tears for you. That must have shocked you. And I wonder, does whoever said that experience the Jesus Gospel? Or am I making up something about the Gospel that it is not? It does sound like an acceptable form of murder. Jesus doesn't advocate kicking people out, He talks about "love". We think of that as inclusion, belonging, FOREVER.
So true! I wonder if it’s ok to think of investing in a Church for a season? I have recently been struck by the shift, “I don’t go to a church, I make up the church.” I want to see us all commit to a community of believers in some strategic way. Big or small, in a building or not...I think we can re-imagine what it looks like but I think we all must find that devotion that characterized the early church
huh . . that's interesting "I don't go to a church, I make up the church."
I'm not sure the Acts 2 devotion is possible because of the car. My son married a woman from Chinese culture. Her Grandmother, that she knew for 30 years, grew up in a rural village in China. There was a huge migration to the US when the Japanese attacked China. I have a book written by a son of Toisanese woman. The community described in this village was lovely. Chpt 4 title The Clan Sisterhood. What they gave up to escape the war sounds like the community we are craving. I don't think you can do it with so much independence. We have to need each other.
I was devoted and committed to 2 churches. The first I was on staff and involved in everything. The Sr. Pastor (whom I came faith under) resigned and the new Sr. Pastors first task was to fire me. I was devastated. But I went to another church. Here I realized what all God did in my life and started to gai an understanding of it. Even though the leaders knew my God given miracle in saving my life through a dream to my uncle when I was a baby was true, I was forbidden to speak of it and suffered, verbal, emotional and spiritual abuse because of it. God told me to leave that church. I thankfully did. I next tried another church. I spoke to leaders and again was forbidden to speak of what God did. I did in a Woman's Bible Study and received notice that the Campus Pastor emailed all the leaders that I was not welcome in any of their churches because I did not obey and submit to their rules. Basically I had to choose God, or not. I choose God. I still do not attend a church because I haven't been able to find one where God is, where I would be accepted and welcomed as me, a chid of God whom HE CHOSE to save when I was dying.
Thank you so much! Your encouragement means alot to me. Look forward to watching your sermon! There are several more, but I don't want to hijack Scot's post anymore than I already have! Sorry Scot!
"You have no idea how hard it is to leave a place that is family.” This is a really important observation. Not to be over looked. We have this notion, this idea, that leaving, detaching from a group that is not healthy for us is going to be or "supposed" to be easy. What I discovered is it was just as hard as leaving a relationship that is filled with goodness. Attachment is attachment. It seems whether good or bad, whatever that glue is, it just doesn't want to give up. A sort of magnet force field.
I hear John Mark Comer and Tyler Staton talk about community or commiting or you call it devotion. We are designed to belong, we have an internal need to belong, but to what? The last church group I dropped into had a strong interest in history. When we got to the 3rd or 4th century after Jesus ascended, the church people started killing each other off just like the unbelievers before Jesus came. It was clear Holy Spirit wasn't in the story. We may not be murdering each other off literally, but we do it with rumors "until it was impossible to determine what had even really happened." Is Holy Spirit available? Tyler's Pentecost sermon was amazing but he definitely was saying Holy Spirit must be part.
I'm guessing you were not born yet when that group drank the kool aid in 1978. I think we haven't learned how to relate well, communicate what we are feeling. I think there's these gaping holes and devotion to human power that doesn't allow space for recognizing Holy Spirit in problem solving. Maybe we read Little Women too many times. We have fantasy expectations. Do you remember when you were 6 and there was another 6 year old girl in your class and you liked each other so much you thought you were twins? That relationship was intense and all other are expected to be just like that. "We share the same soul." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFQksNcp38o
Steve Cuss talked today about it wasn't until he was a chaplain in the hospital and had to come along side people with death and cancer and loss that he comprehended the Gospel. Maybe we haven't faced enough death and loss? It's complex.
The tone of this article sounds an awful lot like victim blaming, as if belonging is simply a matter of our devotion to a given community. It falls woefully short in addressing the deeper systemic flaws within so many existing church governing structures which often override or circumvent the very practices of the body of Christ in its relational context. You are conflating the organization with the organic community it purports to represent. They are two very different things, and the typically secular hierarchical business systems used by many church governing structures are antithetical to what Christ and the early church community model for us in Scripture. Telling spiritually survivors to just be more devoted simply mirrors much of the weaponizing of spiritual principles used by church power brokers to justify their abusive, transactional practices. It fails to leave room for survivors' necessary lament and only serves to retraumatize vulnerable, wounded Christian sisters and brothers. Please reconsider your position on this and use your voice to elevate the wounded rather than bypassing their pain with tone deaf directives.
Thanks for engaging Lyn. It it not my intent to simplify a very difficult and complex reality. I am a victim of church hurt and abuse. I write and preach out it extensively. I lead a church for those hurt by church. I am
Calling is to devote to a people somewhere and in some capacity. To embrace the grit that characterized the early church. I see your pain. Keep telling your story and keep pushing back, speaking out for victims.
Why is it then that I still feel as if you didn't truly hear what I said? Regardless of your quick-defence response touting your credentials for leading a church for people hurt by church, I am trying to tell you that I, as one reader, experienced your article as short on listening to and validating abuse survivors. Apart from your intentions, it missed the mark for this survivor. If all you "heard" was my pain, you're circumventing the issue I raised. Your response feels patronizing and fails to indicate that your article bypasses the critical role of church leaders in making space for lament as part of the healing process. You left out a key element that fosters true deep healing. Again, I respectfully challenge you to reread your own article from the viewpoint of those still trying to come to terms with what they endured. Please reconsider your response to me as well. You assume that my pain is the motivator for what I wrote. I spent five years in trauma-informed therapy and countless hours in prayer to process my experience. I am a former pastor and 40-year church member who is speaking to the body of Christ prophetically as a call to humbly LISTEN to its sisters and brothers. Make space for their lament, and be slower or less inclined to feel the need to defend yourself. Your article and your response to me ring like Job's friends' voices in the midst of his trials. I don't need your permission to keep pushing back. On behalf of all those who were victimized by church abuse, we need you to talk less and use your platform to make space for the survivors. I challenge you to defer your public space to those who need to lament.
A Family Church once existed, it spoke a similar culture, language, care for one another. Across ages, grandpas, grandmas, kids, nursery buddies. They started groups with age levels, from cradle to the grave. Discipleship was occurring- the Jesus way was multiplying. Their early years were another language, because their forefathers came to America from a different land. But good leadership across all ages brought a family spirit-irenic and Spirit led. They started new churches, a Camp for all ages- even in another State - this Denominational church supported global mission. They started a Retirement Home for aging widows and the Family church supported it as well. A University had begun in earlier years in Chicago to support Pastoral Education. Their kids went to that school where it grew and expanded in St Paul, Minnesota. Those graduates came from similar Family Churches throughout the US. The Family grew, the churches expanded.
Two major things began to happen global mission did not see Cities in America as Missions, soon Church Planting became the making of larger and larger suburban churches. The larger churches did not see the City, smaller churches, rural churches, Conferences, camps or… Senior Homes for the Aged as something they needed. Church planting—- that is all we need. No commonness, community, elderly, maybe even urban poor or diverse people groups were not needed Family even in the University - support lacked, Family fell away.
Conferences quit, meeting annually was not needed. Church planting was all that mattered, and make them big.
It’s time to wake up— see Discipleship Making as Family driven, not isolated church plants. Let’s return to Acts2:42-47. We are Family.
Thanks for this.
I both deeply believe what you say—that commitment/devotion is critical to life in community—and also that it's terribly difficult to sustain in some situations. Five years ago, several of us who had been part of the leadership of a congregation for more than 30 years were told, in the middle of a crisis, that our leadership and even our presence were no longer wanted—that we were seen as part of the problem. Almost no one was available with whom we could have had an honest conversation. And at age 70 (at that time), it was truly difficult to imagine starting over, in a different context, to work to embed ourselves in a new community. We've not at all left Jesus; and we've not given up on God's church; and we're waiting. Is the waiting a cop-out? Could be. But it's not for lack of desire. I frequently wish that our situation could be different.
Jim, thanks for sharing this devastating story. I know the pain and betrayal must be so deep. Your tenacity to hold on to Jesus in the midst of it shows true grit. Standing with you.
I love this response. What I've noticed about churches is they seem to have a life cycle. Many do fade away. When you bring in new voices, the new leaders experience was formed being born 30 years later than you. Conflict seems natural. I am so very sorry you were told your leadership and presence were no longer wanted. That must have felt devastating! I do feel tears for you. That must have shocked you. And I wonder, does whoever said that experience the Jesus Gospel? Or am I making up something about the Gospel that it is not? It does sound like an acceptable form of murder. Jesus doesn't advocate kicking people out, He talks about "love". We think of that as inclusion, belonging, FOREVER.
So true! I wonder if it’s ok to think of investing in a Church for a season? I have recently been struck by the shift, “I don’t go to a church, I make up the church.” I want to see us all commit to a community of believers in some strategic way. Big or small, in a building or not...I think we can re-imagine what it looks like but I think we all must find that devotion that characterized the early church
huh . . that's interesting "I don't go to a church, I make up the church."
I'm not sure the Acts 2 devotion is possible because of the car. My son married a woman from Chinese culture. Her Grandmother, that she knew for 30 years, grew up in a rural village in China. There was a huge migration to the US when the Japanese attacked China. I have a book written by a son of Toisanese woman. The community described in this village was lovely. Chpt 4 title The Clan Sisterhood. What they gave up to escape the war sounds like the community we are craving. I don't think you can do it with so much independence. We have to need each other.
I was devoted and committed to 2 churches. The first I was on staff and involved in everything. The Sr. Pastor (whom I came faith under) resigned and the new Sr. Pastors first task was to fire me. I was devastated. But I went to another church. Here I realized what all God did in my life and started to gai an understanding of it. Even though the leaders knew my God given miracle in saving my life through a dream to my uncle when I was a baby was true, I was forbidden to speak of it and suffered, verbal, emotional and spiritual abuse because of it. God told me to leave that church. I thankfully did. I next tried another church. I spoke to leaders and again was forbidden to speak of what God did. I did in a Woman's Bible Study and received notice that the Campus Pastor emailed all the leaders that I was not welcome in any of their churches because I did not obey and submit to their rules. Basically I had to choose God, or not. I choose God. I still do not attend a church because I haven't been able to find one where God is, where I would be accepted and welcomed as me, a chid of God whom HE CHOSE to save when I was dying.
Connie, thank you for sharing this miraculous story. Keep telling it! https://www.thevineyard.church/episode/what-should-we-do-seek-gods-approval/
I just preached a sermon on not being silent! No matter what. I bless your story
Thank you so much! Your encouragement means alot to me. Look forward to watching your sermon! There are several more, but I don't want to hijack Scot's post anymore than I already have! Sorry Scot!
Thank you 🙏🏼
"You have no idea how hard it is to leave a place that is family.” This is a really important observation. Not to be over looked. We have this notion, this idea, that leaving, detaching from a group that is not healthy for us is going to be or "supposed" to be easy. What I discovered is it was just as hard as leaving a relationship that is filled with goodness. Attachment is attachment. It seems whether good or bad, whatever that glue is, it just doesn't want to give up. A sort of magnet force field.
I hear John Mark Comer and Tyler Staton talk about community or commiting or you call it devotion. We are designed to belong, we have an internal need to belong, but to what? The last church group I dropped into had a strong interest in history. When we got to the 3rd or 4th century after Jesus ascended, the church people started killing each other off just like the unbelievers before Jesus came. It was clear Holy Spirit wasn't in the story. We may not be murdering each other off literally, but we do it with rumors "until it was impossible to determine what had even really happened." Is Holy Spirit available? Tyler's Pentecost sermon was amazing but he definitely was saying Holy Spirit must be part.
I'm guessing you were not born yet when that group drank the kool aid in 1978. I think we haven't learned how to relate well, communicate what we are feeling. I think there's these gaping holes and devotion to human power that doesn't allow space for recognizing Holy Spirit in problem solving. Maybe we read Little Women too many times. We have fantasy expectations. Do you remember when you were 6 and there was another 6 year old girl in your class and you liked each other so much you thought you were twins? That relationship was intense and all other are expected to be just like that. "We share the same soul." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFQksNcp38o
Steve Cuss talked today about it wasn't until he was a chaplain in the hospital and had to come along side people with death and cancer and loss that he comprehended the Gospel. Maybe we haven't faced enough death and loss? It's complex.
Ginger, great and helpful thoughts here. We def have to learn to grieve and mourn. Thank you for pointing this out.
The tone of this article sounds an awful lot like victim blaming, as if belonging is simply a matter of our devotion to a given community. It falls woefully short in addressing the deeper systemic flaws within so many existing church governing structures which often override or circumvent the very practices of the body of Christ in its relational context. You are conflating the organization with the organic community it purports to represent. They are two very different things, and the typically secular hierarchical business systems used by many church governing structures are antithetical to what Christ and the early church community model for us in Scripture. Telling spiritually survivors to just be more devoted simply mirrors much of the weaponizing of spiritual principles used by church power brokers to justify their abusive, transactional practices. It fails to leave room for survivors' necessary lament and only serves to retraumatize vulnerable, wounded Christian sisters and brothers. Please reconsider your position on this and use your voice to elevate the wounded rather than bypassing their pain with tone deaf directives.
Thanks for engaging Lyn. It it not my intent to simplify a very difficult and complex reality. I am a victim of church hurt and abuse. I write and preach out it extensively. I lead a church for those hurt by church. I am
Calling is to devote to a people somewhere and in some capacity. To embrace the grit that characterized the early church. I see your pain. Keep telling your story and keep pushing back, speaking out for victims.
Why is it then that I still feel as if you didn't truly hear what I said? Regardless of your quick-defence response touting your credentials for leading a church for people hurt by church, I am trying to tell you that I, as one reader, experienced your article as short on listening to and validating abuse survivors. Apart from your intentions, it missed the mark for this survivor. If all you "heard" was my pain, you're circumventing the issue I raised. Your response feels patronizing and fails to indicate that your article bypasses the critical role of church leaders in making space for lament as part of the healing process. You left out a key element that fosters true deep healing. Again, I respectfully challenge you to reread your own article from the viewpoint of those still trying to come to terms with what they endured. Please reconsider your response to me as well. You assume that my pain is the motivator for what I wrote. I spent five years in trauma-informed therapy and countless hours in prayer to process my experience. I am a former pastor and 40-year church member who is speaking to the body of Christ prophetically as a call to humbly LISTEN to its sisters and brothers. Make space for their lament, and be slower or less inclined to feel the need to defend yourself. Your article and your response to me ring like Job's friends' voices in the midst of his trials. I don't need your permission to keep pushing back. On behalf of all those who were victimized by church abuse, we need you to talk less and use your platform to make space for the survivors. I challenge you to defer your public space to those who need to lament.
Thank you again for engaging, Lyn. I will not continue this critical and complex conversation here.
I am not surprised by your response, just disappointed.
A Family Church once existed, it spoke a similar culture, language, care for one another. Across ages, grandpas, grandmas, kids, nursery buddies. They started groups with age levels, from cradle to the grave. Discipleship was occurring- the Jesus way was multiplying. Their early years were another language, because their forefathers came to America from a different land. But good leadership across all ages brought a family spirit-irenic and Spirit led. They started new churches, a Camp for all ages- even in another State - this Denominational church supported global mission. They started a Retirement Home for aging widows and the Family church supported it as well. A University had begun in earlier years in Chicago to support Pastoral Education. Their kids went to that school where it grew and expanded in St Paul, Minnesota. Those graduates came from similar Family Churches throughout the US. The Family grew, the churches expanded.
Two major things began to happen global mission did not see Cities in America as Missions, soon Church Planting became the making of larger and larger suburban churches. The larger churches did not see the City, smaller churches, rural churches, Conferences, camps or… Senior Homes for the Aged as something they needed. Church planting—- that is all we need. No commonness, community, elderly, maybe even urban poor or diverse people groups were not needed Family even in the University - support lacked, Family fell away.
Conferences quit, meeting annually was not needed. Church planting was all that mattered, and make them big.
It’s time to wake up— see Discipleship Making as Family driven, not isolated church plants. Let’s return to Acts2:42-47. We are Family.
Yes! What a great vision. We are family. Thank you for engaging.