Thank you Scot for reviewing this book. I am sure it takes some time to pull this together. Thanks!
As I was reading the categories you pulled form the book, I started to wonder how much early platforming of young leaders, or in the business world the promotions of young leaders with early successes has contributed to the growth and maturation of narcissistic leaders. It made me think again of God’s maturation process of significant leaders in the Bible. What would Moses have been like if after killing the Egyptian he would have been platformed versus 40 years of shepherding? Or David after having killed Goliath if he didn’t have to run from Saul for ~13yrs. Or Paul’s ongoing unresolvable, “thorn in the flesh”.
George MacDonald in one of his books, I can’t remember the title, stated he would not consider ordination until the person reached 40yrs of age.
All good leaders need to thank God for the thorns in the flesh, however they come and through whomever they come from. They are Gods ways and means from keeping us from the leadership factory that produces the wrong kind of leaders.
Thank you for this. I've not been a pastor, but as I look back on my teaching career, I was at least 40 before it seemed I was able to teach with the wisdom needed. I needed those early years, of course, but in needing them your point is affirmed.
Your closing comment about anyone with a platform likely being 'on the spectrum' is arresting. I found myself reading the markers and wondering how many apply. But I guess if I have a narcissistic personality style I would conclude that of course they don't describe me :) But that comment did drive home just how appealing the preacher/pastor role must be - it provides such potentially rich narcissistic supply, weekly public opportunity for egocentricity, and grandiosity tied up with unique ministry success/importance. Which I guess raises questions over processes that lead to appointments / and effective ministry reviews.
Another thing to think about wow. We can be good and suddenly the supply (devil) gets us and we veer off to the sin. It is humanity and we need to be mindful. The risk of narcissism in new leaders! Great topic you all.
I also think having done 12 steps or behavioral issues (pride, verbal abuse, anger, condescension)... the basis of these personalities are dominant and submissive (codependent), in maladaptiveness..... a dominant person will tend to narcism this is fascinating hope someone is with me. In maladaptiveness the submissive goes to codependency. It is so interesting and complicating. I seek to understand - my brother seeks to blame what is the difference, so in his mind all motives are to assign blame. EVERYTHING is a spectrum or continuum. You are all providing me therapy BLESS you.
So true and thought provoking and basically everyone can go wrong. I was raised in the same household but a different parent favored me - the father who was born in 1917 vs mom 1922 who lost her mother at 8 (the start of the trauma). I was born in 64 so dad almost 50 mom over 40. My mother well lets leave it as untreated medical conditions and a rough childhood. The point we need to understand when we are HURT by them we need to understand the HURT they endured and DID NOT PROCESS. Based on my experience, and I get asked this by the family member still in communication - my sis in law: "He remembers it fondly (denial yea) what's the problem". I have a TBI and go into overwhelm but I have been having smoke out of my ears on this since december. I am trying to articulate and seek the right therapy amongst other medical issues all having to do with the past but in THIS case... If we don't process the past then we are not breaking the generational curse or dysfunction but in words someone like my sis in law who is anti therapy and old school greek orthodox which means she knows nothing just rituals so God is just a small idea that is not real. so for her: What is wrong with remember the past and not processing the hurt? We end up hurting others in this case my brother hurts me by devaluating and dismissing. I JUST FOUND out his daughter a young adult has suicidal ideation and low self worth and he is truly puzzled due to his compensation of worldiness to HIS own abuse (more serious than mine) which devalued him. My narc brother is very high functioning to the tune he wants to live each kid 20 million and I don't think it is mania :) His lifestyle supports that. He is self made due to his insecurities and abuse and that is ALSO an overcomer she states in her book they have reason they are charming and successful. BUT BUT BUT - he did not process. So when I lost all MY worldly compensations of Career (addiction), My dressage hobby and horse (35 mph bolt eventually physics won after 1/4 mile run). PAIN PAIN PAIN and it almost cost my life BUT BUT BUT GOD!!!!! In the darkness I ended up with MORE light and immeasurably more. Can anyone relate to that?
I found the book to be especially clear on narcissism. I liked the chapter covering characteristics of people narcissistic people often look to for their narcissistic supply. The fragile ego and insecurity of the narcissist leads to discarding or devaluing someone who sees a flaw in them. The sadness to me is when that someone is a young person growing up in a home or a church or a youth group. They can be confused. They can self blame. There can be deep wounds. They can be, as the prologue to the book so eloquently points out, unseen. Furthermore, it can set them up for functioning unseen in other vital relationships. For this and other reasons I am grateful for Nurvasula's study, Chuck DeGroat's work, and time spent in this Substack space.
Interesting. Seems like this type of personality is kind of superficial as it is all about them and how great they are in their own eyes. More takers than givers, maybe?
For sure superficial and worldly if not a believer ... so my before was arrogant, successful and snobby in my career and intellectual abilities. I always did believe I achieved much less than capable. It could be due to abrasiveness of thinking I am always right BUT before a traumatic brain injury i was also always in the top 2 pct of my class. My abrasiveness came from impatience as no one was understanding me BUT (again a BUT) - my family also a function of the time didn't recognize my gifts (only dad did, for mom I had to be domestic thin and pretty and that failed at birth due to her illness not diagnosed) - not blaming just explaining. I thought I was smarter than women who chose a family (because i never learned anything good from being in mine and it was all chaotic). I learned to isolate and gravitate to animals and yes shallow there too (purebred dog pretty Samoyed and I would joke I'm shallow). Handsome men but jerks (shallow) it also works the other way - I am Greek in seminary (thank you Scot) I learned Honor/Shame are high in their values and that still holds. I have exec function damage so pardon my run on sentence. Converted helen is channeling it into teaching Bible studies and otherness. helping other victims as this is subtle. The manipulation that can happen in the workplace and churches and seminary as we saw. I talk to my niece and it is like talking to a cult who protects the leader the patriarch ugh.
This is something that at 60 yo and about 35 years of therapy is deeply embedded in me and it came from my MOTHER! My mother had trauma in her life so this becomes an inward maladaptive selfishness and as a child growing up in this? Shame does keep us hidden from God and missing our purpose. I am an intellectual narcissist that is recovered mostly but the other day a neurologist did not hear me when I am in despair and the verbal abuse was there (what is this a gender issue? a need to be right and in control? I stopped short of asking him if i insulted his intelligence when I had something intelligent to say and HE DENIED TREATMENT!) Leaders are on this spectrum she talks of the spectrum vs the disorder. The disorder involves no compassion. I was on the brink of suicide with no family left except my brother and they just made believe nothing was wrong BUT thanks to their rejection I did find GOD or he found me! NOW my niece too has no self worth and when I blurt out 'well you emotionally invalidate her" nope ears shut. This is a must read even for non victims. For me it carried on in life to have the abuse in leaders at work and the unfairness in it all (I was in NYC Finance mans world)... this was before God was more than a faint idea that I did not connect with. he is now real to me and all that anger has somewhere to go but I am estranged from my family and pray over them all and try to keep contact with the victims they are brainwashed! I was brainwashed. Without a Traumatic Brain injury that resulted in the scales falling off my eyes, I too was brainwashed. Forgiveness came when i understood the suffering of each of my abusers. Sorry for the grammar I wrote quick.
Thank you Scot for reviewing this book. I am sure it takes some time to pull this together. Thanks!
As I was reading the categories you pulled form the book, I started to wonder how much early platforming of young leaders, or in the business world the promotions of young leaders with early successes has contributed to the growth and maturation of narcissistic leaders. It made me think again of God’s maturation process of significant leaders in the Bible. What would Moses have been like if after killing the Egyptian he would have been platformed versus 40 years of shepherding? Or David after having killed Goliath if he didn’t have to run from Saul for ~13yrs. Or Paul’s ongoing unresolvable, “thorn in the flesh”.
George MacDonald in one of his books, I can’t remember the title, stated he would not consider ordination until the person reached 40yrs of age.
All good leaders need to thank God for the thorns in the flesh, however they come and through whomever they come from. They are Gods ways and means from keeping us from the leadership factory that produces the wrong kind of leaders.
Thank you for this. I've not been a pastor, but as I look back on my teaching career, I was at least 40 before it seemed I was able to teach with the wisdom needed. I needed those early years, of course, but in needing them your point is affirmed.
Your closing comment about anyone with a platform likely being 'on the spectrum' is arresting. I found myself reading the markers and wondering how many apply. But I guess if I have a narcissistic personality style I would conclude that of course they don't describe me :) But that comment did drive home just how appealing the preacher/pastor role must be - it provides such potentially rich narcissistic supply, weekly public opportunity for egocentricity, and grandiosity tied up with unique ministry success/importance. Which I guess raises questions over processes that lead to appointments / and effective ministry reviews.
You are so so so right.
Another thing to think about wow. We can be good and suddenly the supply (devil) gets us and we veer off to the sin. It is humanity and we need to be mindful. The risk of narcissism in new leaders! Great topic you all.
I also think having done 12 steps or behavioral issues (pride, verbal abuse, anger, condescension)... the basis of these personalities are dominant and submissive (codependent), in maladaptiveness..... a dominant person will tend to narcism this is fascinating hope someone is with me. In maladaptiveness the submissive goes to codependency. It is so interesting and complicating. I seek to understand - my brother seeks to blame what is the difference, so in his mind all motives are to assign blame. EVERYTHING is a spectrum or continuum. You are all providing me therapy BLESS you.
So true and thought provoking and basically everyone can go wrong. I was raised in the same household but a different parent favored me - the father who was born in 1917 vs mom 1922 who lost her mother at 8 (the start of the trauma). I was born in 64 so dad almost 50 mom over 40. My mother well lets leave it as untreated medical conditions and a rough childhood. The point we need to understand when we are HURT by them we need to understand the HURT they endured and DID NOT PROCESS. Based on my experience, and I get asked this by the family member still in communication - my sis in law: "He remembers it fondly (denial yea) what's the problem". I have a TBI and go into overwhelm but I have been having smoke out of my ears on this since december. I am trying to articulate and seek the right therapy amongst other medical issues all having to do with the past but in THIS case... If we don't process the past then we are not breaking the generational curse or dysfunction but in words someone like my sis in law who is anti therapy and old school greek orthodox which means she knows nothing just rituals so God is just a small idea that is not real. so for her: What is wrong with remember the past and not processing the hurt? We end up hurting others in this case my brother hurts me by devaluating and dismissing. I JUST FOUND out his daughter a young adult has suicidal ideation and low self worth and he is truly puzzled due to his compensation of worldiness to HIS own abuse (more serious than mine) which devalued him. My narc brother is very high functioning to the tune he wants to live each kid 20 million and I don't think it is mania :) His lifestyle supports that. He is self made due to his insecurities and abuse and that is ALSO an overcomer she states in her book they have reason they are charming and successful. BUT BUT BUT - he did not process. So when I lost all MY worldly compensations of Career (addiction), My dressage hobby and horse (35 mph bolt eventually physics won after 1/4 mile run). PAIN PAIN PAIN and it almost cost my life BUT BUT BUT GOD!!!!! In the darkness I ended up with MORE light and immeasurably more. Can anyone relate to that?
I found the book to be especially clear on narcissism. I liked the chapter covering characteristics of people narcissistic people often look to for their narcissistic supply. The fragile ego and insecurity of the narcissist leads to discarding or devaluing someone who sees a flaw in them. The sadness to me is when that someone is a young person growing up in a home or a church or a youth group. They can be confused. They can self blame. There can be deep wounds. They can be, as the prologue to the book so eloquently points out, unseen. Furthermore, it can set them up for functioning unseen in other vital relationships. For this and other reasons I am grateful for Nurvasula's study, Chuck DeGroat's work, and time spent in this Substack space.
Thank you Scott, I am looking forward to reading this .
Interesting. Seems like this type of personality is kind of superficial as it is all about them and how great they are in their own eyes. More takers than givers, maybe?
For sure superficial and worldly if not a believer ... so my before was arrogant, successful and snobby in my career and intellectual abilities. I always did believe I achieved much less than capable. It could be due to abrasiveness of thinking I am always right BUT before a traumatic brain injury i was also always in the top 2 pct of my class. My abrasiveness came from impatience as no one was understanding me BUT (again a BUT) - my family also a function of the time didn't recognize my gifts (only dad did, for mom I had to be domestic thin and pretty and that failed at birth due to her illness not diagnosed) - not blaming just explaining. I thought I was smarter than women who chose a family (because i never learned anything good from being in mine and it was all chaotic). I learned to isolate and gravitate to animals and yes shallow there too (purebred dog pretty Samoyed and I would joke I'm shallow). Handsome men but jerks (shallow) it also works the other way - I am Greek in seminary (thank you Scot) I learned Honor/Shame are high in their values and that still holds. I have exec function damage so pardon my run on sentence. Converted helen is channeling it into teaching Bible studies and otherness. helping other victims as this is subtle. The manipulation that can happen in the workplace and churches and seminary as we saw. I talk to my niece and it is like talking to a cult who protects the leader the patriarch ugh.
This is something that at 60 yo and about 35 years of therapy is deeply embedded in me and it came from my MOTHER! My mother had trauma in her life so this becomes an inward maladaptive selfishness and as a child growing up in this? Shame does keep us hidden from God and missing our purpose. I am an intellectual narcissist that is recovered mostly but the other day a neurologist did not hear me when I am in despair and the verbal abuse was there (what is this a gender issue? a need to be right and in control? I stopped short of asking him if i insulted his intelligence when I had something intelligent to say and HE DENIED TREATMENT!) Leaders are on this spectrum she talks of the spectrum vs the disorder. The disorder involves no compassion. I was on the brink of suicide with no family left except my brother and they just made believe nothing was wrong BUT thanks to their rejection I did find GOD or he found me! NOW my niece too has no self worth and when I blurt out 'well you emotionally invalidate her" nope ears shut. This is a must read even for non victims. For me it carried on in life to have the abuse in leaders at work and the unfairness in it all (I was in NYC Finance mans world)... this was before God was more than a faint idea that I did not connect with. he is now real to me and all that anger has somewhere to go but I am estranged from my family and pray over them all and try to keep contact with the victims they are brainwashed! I was brainwashed. Without a Traumatic Brain injury that resulted in the scales falling off my eyes, I too was brainwashed. Forgiveness came when i understood the suffering of each of my abusers. Sorry for the grammar I wrote quick.